February 15th, 2012
02:32 AM GMT
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London (CNN) – It is official. The Greek economy has gone into meltdown.

The numbers released Tuesday show that during 2011 the economy contracted by 7%. Barclays estimates that much of that loss came in the last three months – when the economy dropped a whopping 5.1%.

A look at the IMF's World Economic Outlook puts it into context. In the darkest days of the recession no other developed country came close to suffering such a large loss (U.S. -2.4%; UK -4.9%; Eurozone -4.1).

It is now clear Greece's economy has fallen off a cliff. It has endured five years of grueling recession and every prospect of much more to come, as even the Greek prime minister warned that things would be tough for years to come.

And still on Tuesday evening there is nothing but confusion over whether Greece will get the bailout money it needs, as the Eurozone group cancels a meeting scheduled for Wednesday and makes noises that Greece still hasn't done enough.

The situation seems to be as grave as it has been. On the one-hand the eurozone nations are playing hardball while back in Greece, there is instability, poverty and the destruction of the economy. But is the eurozone demanding too much? If Greece sinks into riot and rebellion, will we look back on this time as being an error in history because, even for understandable reasons, the Europeans pushed too hard?

Comparisons can be made with the Versailles Treaty and the way Germany was treated after World War I.   Hefty reparations and a humiliating defeat were heaped on the country.  It all ultimately led to such resentment and anger that the seeds were sewn for the nationalism which followed. In Greece's case there are the years of debt burden on future generations, the humiliation of making elected politicians sign pledges to other European governments and ultimately the destruction of a way of life (albeit unsustainable) that is precious. I don't think I can push the analogy much further though. Greece hasn't had territorial appropriations or restrictions on its military.

But the point remains. What some in Greece are calling the "German boot" on their throat is stoking up a level of nationalist fervor and resentment that, if not careful, the Europeans may literally push too far.

The eurozone is an example of everyone being clever after the event – "coulda, shoulda, woulda" galore on how the Euro was set up.  It would be a terrible shame if Greece's political and economic collapse became another footnote setting back Europe decades.

soundoff (237 Responses)
  1. George

    Interesting analogy with Greece and the events that followed after the Treaty of Versailles. Although I doubt it will get that terrible for Greece, because let's not forget Germany also had to recover from a five year world war, but nationalism and a common hatred towards Germany and possibly even France will arise out of this, that can be assured. But the real will question is will fascism return? If a nation is pushed too much to the edge it just might.

    February 15, 2012 at 2:58 am |
  2. Steven Grapperhaus

    Seriously, you are comparing Germany to Greece and inferring that if the "Europeans push too far," there could be some sort of armed conflict? OK. Let's think about this with our smart people hats on.

    You cannot equate the history and national characters of the two nations/cultures. 1919 Germany was financially ruined because it lost a war–a war in which it launched the first strike, and came close to dominating all of Western Europe. Greece is broke because people cheat their taxes, and state-run and government jobs pay ridiculously high wages. Germany was a militaristic nation ("Iron and blood"), Greece is not. Germany had the requisite industrial infrastructure, intellectual capital, military know-how, and self-discipline to undertake a military solution to the perceived injustice of Versailles, Greece...buys all of their military hardware from other countries, can't pay its debt because it has no discipline, and hasn't seen a major military conflict the size of something undertaken by Germany in...forever? What are the Greeks going to do, drink and riot their way to European hegemony?

    That there could be massive internal strife is a different issue. It seems logical that Greece will IMplode, yet you infer that Greece could EXplore, as Germany did, as an actual danger to other nations in Europe.
    Even if this happened, it'd be put down in days–gosh, NATO vs Greece, who's gonna win that one?–so what is the real danger?

    1919 Germany to 2012 Greece is a starving, battled-scarred tiger to a fat, lazy drunkard.

    Get your historical anaylsis right.

    February 15, 2012 at 4:26 am |
  3. Chris

    Can't agree more with Steven Grapperhaus.

    February 15, 2012 at 4:56 am |
  4. Vasilis

    Fat, Lazy and drunkard is Greece? That's a fantastic historical analysis, you cannot get more biased, ill-informed and mean.
    Plus you didn't get the analogy correctly. The author doesn't assume that Greeks will start WWIII. He just points out that humiliating a nation (like you do in your comments) can lead nowhere but in dark years.

    BTW, lazy is such a stereotype that it's not a surprise that you repeat it without putting even the smallest amount of thought. Drank and fat? Seriously? Have you ever been in Greece? Maybe you're drank right now.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:05 am |
  5. Anthony Kovic

    Greece's economy has contracted by 7% in 2011, and will continue to further contract until the economic activity equals what the Greeks can actually produce and afford.

    According to the OECD, up to 25% of Greece's economy was essentially a sham, basically foreign money being borrowed to dish out to inefficient government workers and welfare-state programs. Problem is the productive sector (private businesses and citizens) weren't generating enough economic activity and taxes for the government to pay back the loans. Greece was living well beyond means. Party over - and a very long hangover will follow.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:07 am |
  6. Vasilis

    Oh God, I read again Steven's comment and he's so far it's sad... You really understood that Greeks will start a war against everybody and you argue that NATO will not let it happen? Such a fail, learn to understand please

    February 15, 2012 at 5:08 am |
  7. Andreas Bartels

    I am wondering what happened to the "European Union", This seems more like a German Union. Why does everyone consult
    first with the Mr.Schaeuble ? Is all of Europe centred around him? Greek people work hard, even in the public sector.
    The core problem is that of organization, or lack of it that causes the problem. Of course there is corruption, and tax evasion, but all of this because the laws are not implemented. If you look at the Greeks abroad you will see that they are very successful in the country the live in and are law abiding citizens there because the system works.
    Corruption in Greece was not an issue while companies like Siemens and many others were doing business here,
    northern Europe was happily loaning money to the the south, while the south was a good consumer of the northern goods. It looks like capitalism and free trade still have a few wrinkles to iron out.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:08 am |
  8. Dargel

    We only need the > 500 bn Euros that Germany still owes us from the money stolen in WWII. We should be fine after that.

    Btw Eurostat says Greeks are the most hard working in the EU, and I can verify that having worked in both France and Germany for 5 years. Or statistics doesnt mean a thing when it comes to people and not economies?

    February 15, 2012 at 5:59 am |
  9. Dimitrios Geroussis

    It is really a waist to reason with people like mister Grapperhaus. Obviously of some sort of germanic descent he understands things only on military terms, as his ancestor did twice in the 20th century. The problem for Europe is the germans were given to early a "carte blanche", forgiveness & help, because of the communist danger. Yes, Greeks are inefficient, not well organized even some of them petty thefts. You may call what ever you want Greeks, in your gross ignorance, one thing you may not call them criminals, this TOP distinction belongs to the german people and their is ample proof of this in recent history. So shut up & don't you dare speak up again, do you think because you got rich again with the help of all your former victims, you are also forgiven? No you are dispised, infinitely more than the poor inefficient Greeks

    February 15, 2012 at 6:08 am |
  10. ephee

    You turn to Mr Quest for your news update? Seriously? The man had a WIDE smile on his face at the roof of the hotel where he was reporting on the 2nd referendum last summer, and that smile was obvious even when he had his gas mask on!
    Steven Grapperhaus, before you spread any more slander about Greeks, i have to inform you your job is already done.. by our former prime minister. Papandreou is an american citizen, he shouldn't have been a candidate in the first place! Hence his "antigreek" campain in order to get our spreads higher and higher. Other (?) members of his family are making money on our -very likely- default.
    Greek problem has absolutely nothing to do with Tax Evasion. On the other hand, companies like Coca-cola, Pepsi, Heineken, DO NOT pay taxes in my country.. which means greek products can't be offered in lower prices! (DUH!)
    I make 9.732 euro a year, and i'm being taxed for everything over 5000. Can you live on that? I dare you..
    Can you buy greek products on this salary when -only in order to join the EU- they forced us to rip off olive trees, and trash tonnes of greek fruit every year, so we would import?
    Where was mr Quest when his country, along with Germany and France were FORCING us to buy their weapons while this was only making our debt bigger?
    Where was he when -while in debt- nothing was known, no-one asked the people and we were to host the 2004 Olympic Games?
    Where was he when our state insurance was ripped off by Mr Simitis and invested on bonds that collapsed?

    February 15, 2012 at 6:10 am |
  11. Alkistis

    I agree with Andreas Bartels: "The core problem is that of organization, or lack of it that causes the problem. Of course there is corruption, and tax evasion, but all of this because the laws are not implemented. If you look at the Greeks abroad you will see that they are very successful in the country the live in and are law abiding citizens there because the system works.
    Corruption in Greece was not an issue while companies like Siemens and many others were doing business here"

    February 15, 2012 at 6:18 am |
  12. Nikos

    Don't touch Greece. You may respect my homeland. Read Greek history to know what we are. Don't believe Germany and all our enemies.

    February 15, 2012 at 6:45 am |
  13. Steven Grapperhaus

    You guys misunderstood me. I have a ton of respect for Greece, as ancient culture with an amazing history. The first novel I ever read–at age 8–was The Oddsey. Just trying to say, you cannot logically compare 1919 Germany to 2012 Greece. And I used the analogy of a tiger vs a fat drunk man-but that doesn't mean "Greeks = fat drunks" nor does it mean "Germans = starving tigers."

    February 15, 2012 at 6:51 am |
  14. Chris

    Steven Grapp just showed why the German hatred is so high. Germany has TWICE tried to Control Europe. The causes of World War One and Two.

    Now they are trying with Finacial might. They haven't changed and never will. They ensured that the Southern staes enter the EU on their terms(of which the Greek Politicians are to blame. With a bit of help of course). Agriculture was limited and exports to be mainly bought by these countries from germany. Then once the money was , on purpose, dried up they come trying to be the 'helpers'.

    The same thing happened to Argentina with the IMF, Mexico and Brazil. Are bankers that dumb that they give away far too much money. Are Gov't that dumb that they over spend.

    Yeah right!!

    Greece collects 34% of it tax revenue compared to it's National Income. More than Australia & USA. It's tax rates are getting higher. Not enough for the bankers it would seem.

    And it's not the Greek people's fault as much as it is the German peoples fault if the bankers got their money and gambled it away...

    February 15, 2012 at 6:58 am |
  15. pro fundo


    Had Germany treated Greece like the USA treats West Virginia, Alabama, and Mississippi this conversation would not exist. Where is the EU's Lincoln to proclaim union at all costs? Surely what faced the USA after the civil war to rebuild its South pales the relatively ease of Brussels to make whole again.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:06 am |
  16. Steven Grapperhaus

    WV was a Union State, but, you have an interesting point.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:07 am |
  17. Panajotis

    Answer to Steven Grapperhaus:

    If you had ever read history then you would have known that Greece rarely began a war. The greatest war it began was under Alexander the Great and that was not a war to suppress but to unite people. You forget that the militaristic Germans had destroyed a great part of Greece and killed many Greeks during WWII and till today they refuse to pay the hundreds of billions of Euros debt they have to! And they demand from Greece to pay its own debt which is much less! Today dear Steven we have WWIII (economic war) which began again from .... Germany! These are the so "humanistic" Germans!

    February 15, 2012 at 7:12 am |
  18. Volker Schmidt


    really fun. Each german worker already spend 4000€ to support greece. Now we can read here, that germany is the enemy and the current problems are not greece fault in the first place?

    Sorry the real underlying problem always was greece always thought that family coming first (I saw a greece admin guy putting a relative on a engineering job that should support EU to improve energy infrastructure. The qualification of the guy was middle school + a 10 years looking for sheep. If you assume this guy did not a lot of good for his country I guess you think right. I know that there are hard working people in greece, but as long as all look away when corruption takes place, sorry there is no help for you. Guess you have to learn it the hard way.

    ps. Just for the record. WW1 was not started by Germany but Austria (though they chipped in with joy)

    February 15, 2012 at 7:16 am |
  19. Steven Grapperhaus

    Yes, poor Greece. Not their fault.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:19 am |
  20. James

    i really think usa is in a lot more trouble than all the eu nations combined. scary days ahead

    February 15, 2012 at 7:47 am |
  21. chris

    Uhm..Μost of the cases of corruption and big scandals invovled...guess what....GERMAN COMPANIES.....what a suprise.

    1) Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) and its unsunkable sub marines which cost few billion euros, millions on commisions and the firm asks for more money in order to fix its problematic submarines
    2) Siemens – The champion of Corruption, billion of euros, tax evasion, it is the holy bible of crime. EU and Greek taxpayers have paid a new metro line which is not delivered because Siemens wants its crimes to be written off in order to deliver the electrical equipment and open the metro line..well done..
    3) LeoPard – 2 Tanks. The only tanks without ammunition...good job germans!!!
    those are jst some of the cases, you can count on several billion of euros of tax evasion and other financial crimes...

    Meanwhile we do not forget the war damages caused from Nazis...you OWN money....

    February 15, 2012 at 8:18 am |
  22. aletta-maria van Luyn

    I am dutch, but half jewish, and believe it or not I am seeing a progrom going on again, this time it are not the jews ,but the Greeks. The Greeks are hard working people and not alcoholics , like most of the Germans are look at them when they are
    holidaying in Greece, Spain, Italy or Portugal, they behave badly, do not tip anyone in one word, their are lousy company.The problem with Greece are not their people who are generous warmhearted and spirited, but with the polical system, wich Germany abused and used for their own interest, see submarines ,that are not seaworthy ,leopard tanks, sold with the double price as had been sold to other countries, Siemens bribing politicians, O HOW SWELL ARE THE GERMANS YOU MUST LOVE THEM ALL TO THEIR OWN INTEREST, LET THEM PAY BACK ,WHAT THEY HAVE STOLEN FROM GREECE DURING WW 2 and pay back the loans they took from Greece, plus all the damage killing and mayhem, they brought on this lousy lazy drunken Greeks who kept them at bay, so that poor Hitler had to pospone BARBAROSO. so he was defeated on the russian front, so Heil Hitler from a dutch citizen hope you may all rot in HELL.

    February 15, 2012 at 9:05 am |
  23. pro fundo

    King Otto of Bavaria was made King of Greece in 1830. Bavarian administrators ran the country until it became a republic in the 20th century. In 1893 Greece was made bankrupt by London financial houses which precipitated riots in Athens and ultimately a Greek diaspora more populous than Greece itself. The Germans ran the country and the Brits made it go broke so those industrious Americans could go in and rebuild it again.

    Interestingly, this is exactly how viruses and the human immune system works. A Greek body, a German immune booster, a British virus, an American fever, and a somewhat healthy body again for long periods of time. But as in an HIV infection, the body is compromised and more susceptible to future attacks. Sovereignty, or the absence of
    viral infection, is impossible since the infection is incurable and the treatment regimen creative as they may be, are forever harsh and exceedingly expensive.

    But unlike a true pathogen, the British imperial bug, crooked financiers of the Anglo dominated IMF, are in cahoots with the fever. It's an artificially imposed sickness meant to keep the patient hobbling along for maximum exploitation.

    What good is it if the virus kills the body? The best scenario for any virus is to keep the body perpetually weakened but always on the brink of death. Credit card issuers operate much the same way.

    This allows for the virus to rule as if it is a master who keeps an indentured servant for as long as humanly possible.
    Even if that wasn't in the original agreement.

    It isn't discussed much, but Greece is being pulled like taffy. The Pound-Dollar alliance vs The Euro Axis still have a heavy hand in Greek's misfortune. This is the financial reality. The military reality is Greece is still a NATO member and as such, Greece, even if it is booted from the Eurozone, will continue to be coddled just enough to make due.

    Then again, it could be much more a benign infection than that. Let's face reality- Greece is the jewel in the crown for bankers on holiday. Too many of them need a cheap place to retire with their much reduced bonuses but Greece got too expensive. This round of financial horseplay is all but a ruse to make gorgeous Greece cheap again.

    February 15, 2012 at 9:10 am |
  24. Floyd Burgoz

    This has lead to resentment and it will it will grow. How far only time will tell, but other nations in Europe that are contemplating entrance to the Currency/Union had better not cook the books because the Euro Ministers may again look the other way as they did with Greece to appease Germany and accept another Tourist Economy.

    February 15, 2012 at 9:20 am |
  25. Floyd Burgoz

    Now that was amazing pro fundo.

    February 15, 2012 at 9:24 am |


    February 15, 2012 at 9:51 am |
  27. John

    Reading through all the above made me think how many times have we, Hellenes, tried to get rid of that name that our dear "friends and neighbors" attached to us during their "400 yr friendly stay" in our country....."Greece" (derives from the Turkish word Grekos which means "slave").
    I have been wondering why all these decades we have not managed to burst out of this ridiculous and disgusting name although we spent a considerable amount of money and effort to that direction... on the other hand, the answer may be simpler that it looks. Probably no one else really wanted us to lose that useful property ..Dukes and other noble Europeans will eventually need hard working-slaves in the imminent future ...
    In spite of the above, Europe, (deriving from the Greek work Eurys which means wide, wide in aspects and in variety) has been a victim too... Its name was undertaken by countries that they never assumed and digested the real meaning of the word ...
    How ironic is that, now, Hellas is forced to leave its birth place ...And all this for a few euros that ...the German taxpayer paid for us ....
    Germans should be happy that paid taxes to compensate and preserve for the Royalty fees Hellas should have imposed for the brutal and ignorant use of the word "Europe"!!!!

    February 15, 2012 at 9:54 am |
  28. Klaus

    Richard, you indeed have a point in this comparison. But propably a point you didn't even thought of.

    As you can read in the comments here, some greek nationalists are already busy creating their very own version of stab-in-the-back legend.

    For post ww1 Germany, it were the jews at home that were responsible for ww1 and the Germany loosing it, for the Greeks in 2012 its the evil germans who stabbed their incredibly hard working, everything right doing, righteous , brilliant, prosperous greeks and their perfectly brilliant economy in the back.

    Evil Siemens came and forced greek politicians to take their money. They said "No, thanks. We Greek people have nothing to do with fakelaki. That would be corruption you know. We are the least corrupt country in the world."

    Then the germans threatened to ruin Greece if they don't buy all their submarines and tanks. Incredibly useless things which Greek politicians and military never wanted to have. In fact, they all wanted to donate that respective money to the poor and homeless and old in Greece.... but then those terrible germans came and forced them at gunpoint to take loans and buy german tanks instead. Monstrous !

    Then there are those 500 billion Euros , Germany stole from Greece in ww2. Some so called "historians" would say that this is more money than existed in the entire world in 1940's. But that are propably german historians you know. Fact is that greek experters say that this what Germany stole in incredibly rich Greece in ww2. Exactly the sum which Greece now desperately needs. What a perfidious plan those germans made 60 years ago !

    They also stole all the milk and honey in the Greece's rivers and replaced it with.... useless WATER ! Can you imagine that level of evil ?

    And now they come and dare to say that Greece has done something wrong ?!!! This is OUTRAGEOUS ! Greece has never done anything wrong ! It was stabbed in the back right in the moment it was reaching perfection ! What's next on the list ? Will they humiliate Greece even further by claiming that Greece needs to stop living in the past ? Reminding it that the last great world influencing achievements of Greece happened more than 3000 years ago and then stopped ? Telling them that Greeks should rather start reforming and re-inventing themselves to do something which is worth something in 2012 instead of pointing to their ancestors ? More german lies and hatred !

    February 15, 2012 at 9:58 am |
  29. theo konti

    The comparison made in this article is quite successful, but I would personally push it even further: the Greeks of today feel rather like the Jews of the 1930s than like the Germans in 1919. The world has been made to believe that the Greek nation is to blame for the whole systemic crisis in today's European economy. This collective anathema is, ex principio, totally irrational. You cannot blame a whole nation of being dishonest, regardless if there is a great degree of corruption (which is in itself a burden for the majority). Using a whole group of people as a scapegoat has historically always led to disaster, not only for the scapegoats themselves.
    In the case of Greece, it is the inability of the Greek government together with the harsh "prescription" imposed on the working people of the country that has led the Greek economy (and society) to a vicious circle. Unfortunately, neither the leaders of Europe seem to have the ability to find a solution that would be beneficial for Greece, as well as for the whole of Europe.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:07 am |
  30. Rick-Berlin

    What´s the point chis?
    Blaming the Barman for your hangover after the party?
    The subs work fine, and the guys from Siemens in Greece have been: Michael Christoforakos and Ilias Georgiou. Not some guys from Siemens in Germany.
    Ammonition for Leo tanks can be ordered at Rheinmetall Defence just call +49.05827 80-01. Problem may be, that there is still a open bill over 100 million € and Rheinmetall wants now advance payment.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:14 am |
  31. mulapin

    statistically speaking if last 3 months dip only 5.1% then first 9 months have to dip more than 7% so that average for the whole year at 7%, right?

    February 15, 2012 at 10:17 am |
  32. Tim

    @Klaus :) that was funny mate.
    I see Greece leaving the Euro zone as a natural phenomena. Problem is Europe trying at all cost trying to prevent this from happening which is causing more problems and heart ache.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:29 am |
  33. Eralun

    Klaus, has hit the nail on the head so to speak.
    However living over your limits was a problems throughout Europe, and the whole of Europe is paying.
    The reason why Greece is in such problem is, there ecnomy was never that good in the first place, coupled with a very early retirement age, very large government control, corruption, massive tax evasion, and a large welfare state.
    Other countries in Euopre have these too, but never compared to Greece.
    All this Hatred of Germany/Greece, is pathetic and small minded.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:35 am |
  34. Kostas

    Dear Klaus,

    I can clearly see how upset you became.

    I still don't see how you could offer any kind of solidarity to the Greeks, from your sayings.

    When the allies helped the Germans after the war, it was not Hitler they want to help, but the people.

    Wish, you were more thoughtfull.

    Kostas Drekis

    February 15, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  35. Stephen Green

    As all the members of the European Commission and The European Council were all personally involved in the fraud that was perpetrated when Greece was admitted to the EU and the Euro Zone, first call should be their personal resources( including pension rights) before any taxpayers money is used to rescue the Greek economy.
    It's known as personal responsibility. A concept whose time has come perhaps?

    February 15, 2012 at 10:38 am |
  36. Vasiliki

    We know that the political corruption is our biggest problem and we hope that we will find our way to chance this political stage, but those politicians that brought us in that situations are those who gave to the France and German multinational corporations such as Siemens that space to act under the table and make millions of Euros for decades. Wasn't they support that political system because was convenient for them. All that imported products are not an income for the foreign countries?(over the 90% of products in Greece are imported, and still our politicians problem is how could maintain our ability to import instead of grow the national production to be self-sufficient and then to export Greek products. You make money from us, we (simple citizens) pay our growing taxes, buy like (with high cost) a developed member of EU and worse ,paid like a developing member and from now on like an underdeveloped.....is that cause we will become cheap labor used by multinational corporations? Is it fair for a nation who work really hard to keep being stolen, its wrights ,indignity and dreams. You complain Mr Volker Schmidt for your taxes, don't you know, don't you understand that is just an excuse to take more money from you, because if you were more open mind an well informed you would know that was, and still are, different ways to deal with our economical problem without your money!!!!but but those who control want us to become poverty stricken. We don't wish for your money, we just want to be free, we want democracy back. And don't forget, rude is someone without ethical principles and ΠΑΙΔΕΙΑ (which doesn't mean education, read Greek philosophy and history to understand and learn ). Don't be rude then and don't insult us.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:42 am |
  37. Kostas

    As for Eralun's sayings.

    Pathetic is to accept decisions of the international court for war criminal acts.

    Kostas Drekis

    February 15, 2012 at 10:42 am |
  38. Dimitrios Geroussis

    V. Schmit ....... really fun. Each german worker already spend 4000€ to support greece.......
    You know Volker these 4.000 Euros you claim ??? each german worker gives to Hellas are not gratis, they are loans & carry a 4-5% annual interest, when the poor german worker hardly makes a 1.2% interest on its saving account with the german banks !!!! Who is the victim then ??? may be both Greek & German workers??? & the winner are the banks.... just think a bit

    February 15, 2012 at 10:50 am |
  39. Eralun

    I'm not too sure what your point is.
    I personly don't know very much about the reasons for and aganist Germany war crimes in greece. I know they conqured the country, forceing the small British force off, and onto crete. That is sadly as far as my knowledge goes.
    I'm sure that Germany does owe Greece money, and believe they should repay the Greeks.
    However that is not a excuse for Greece's current position and problems. Germany was decimated after WW2 and was a split country till 20 years ago, expecting them to repay such a large amount money in such a "short" amount of time.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:52 am |
  40. Giorgos Vamvakousis

    Another proof that Democracy is suffering all over Europe. Mrs Merkel and her accessory Mr sarkozy decide for all the Europeans. A real oligarchy. So Debtocracy is the new regime.
    The british model of representative Democracy turns into a joke. Greece, the nest of Democracy is the first examplary target. Of course, Greece was the nest of Direct Democracy, not the representative's one.
    In Switzerland they have Direct Democracy, inspired and introduced by a Greek, Ioannis Kapodistrias, back in 19th century. Then Ioannis Kapodistrias was the first governor of Greece when liberated from the Otoman empire. Kapodistrias was murdered by local agents of the strong European countries wishing to continue dominating Greece in relay of the Otomans.

    February 15, 2012 at 10:57 am |
  41. Mario G.

    Read some articles about your fantastic economy :



    Good morning nazism! How was your 50 year sleep?

    February 15, 2012 at 11:08 am |
  42. marian

    Ah all I see and feel is hate, hate and some more hate. Has no one figured out that we are all humans with faults. We all make mistakes, should we stone each other? Then who will be left? Yes Greece has made mistakes, yes Germany owns money. Now we are taking a bad situation and making it worst, instead of being united we choose to be apart. It shouldn't be this nation vs that nation. It should be the people of the world united against the elite because they have no country, no religion. The only thing that matters is money. Today they are attacking Greece and trying to enslave it (and if the Greeks don't wake up they will probably succeed) but YOUR next on their list because they can never get enough.......wwi and wwii has gone and past lets not cry over spilled milk. What are we going to do about WWIII??? Our forefathers made mistakes but they gave us (lets call it ) freedom. Now it's our turn, if we make the same mistakes then we have no right to judge anyone, we should stay quietly in our corner and endure whatever is to come.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:09 am |
  43. Bohème Chinois

    Please, Greece is tiny and insignificant compared to Germany just after World War I. If Greek nationalism flares up and goes to fight, the rest of the EU would keep the Greeks down. The Greeks of today are just not like their strong, fortified ancestors.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:12 am |
  44. An American

    Germany was forced into accepting terms of the 1919 Versailes Treaty by France and England – they had no choice. Also that treaty TOOK money and land from Germany.

    Greece is being OFFERED money by Germany – if you don't want their money, then don't accept it. Really this deal offered to Greece by the EU is too generous in my opinion. Perhaps if Greece had to sell their land to pay for their debt they would feel better about this deal they are being offered.

    Do the Greeks really think the EU should just GIVE them this money so they can continue to retire at 50 years old while the rest of the world has to work until 65 or longer???

    February 15, 2012 at 11:42 am |
  45. kalyaja

    I disagree. Greek is not like the German. There are many differences...in cultures, society, people's work ethics and geograpy. Greek isn't capable to start the war, let alone feeding themselves. the German on the other hand, are strickly disciplined people, hard working and smart. The Greek are all opposite from the German. What's happening in Greece is what they have done it to themselves, digging themselves their own grave. Since the first bail out in 2010, there could have been some improvement. But they didn't deliver because of all corrupted politicians. The EU should have just cut loss now by letting them go than later. It would be a (smaller) price to pay than waiting for another year, knowing full well that Greece is going to default anyway. The very people who will revolt over this austerity measure is not the Greek but the German tax payers and other eu countries which foot the bills, not the Greek nationalist who are too weak, too hungry. these people are capable only to inflict the damages in their own countries and to their own people like those rioters in Athen.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:43 am |
  46. kalyaja

    Another point is.... the German had also gone through their own austerity measure 5 years ago. Everyone made small sacrifices in order to lift the national debt burden and it paid off. Why can't the Greek or the Portuguise or the spanish do the same? You gotta clean up after your own mess.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:49 am |
  47. Harry

    Where was the EU and its leaders (including the Germans) before? They have no responsibility? The only one to blame and make suffer is the Greek people? Why they allowed the Olympic Games of 2004 ito take place in Greece?
    Make people (not the ones responsible) suffer becomes the new fundamental principle of the EU. Open war of course will not follow yet don't forget september 11 and the fact that the destruction of Greece already affects the others...

    February 15, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
  48. Vaso

    I am sry for most off the things i read here to both sides Greeks and Germans...I am Greek my self i am 23 years old and all i see is chaos and nothing else...I was born when the economy was well (fake well economy but still). When i finished university it was time for me to start my own life get a job have money to pay a roof over my head etc. Sadly thats not happening cause a job pays 700 euros a rent the lowest one goes 300 and the taxes and bills will take the rest...So i ask u since u put all Greeks in the same bag, was it my fault and i am paying the conciquences??? Just because i was born in Greece???? i dont care why it all started i dont care whose fault it was the Germans the Greeks or anyone i just want to have a future ahead of me..i am sry that Germany didnt pay Greece for WW2 i am sry Germans that u had to pay more taxes for us but i can assure u i didnt ask for it...as everywhere in this world there are lazy ppl and ppl who work hard and ppl who drink or whatever why would i and my generation and the generations close to mine be blamed for it??? Do i really have to live in a world where instead of supporting each other we have to find sites on the internet and say whats wrong with its country and their ppl??? i know the things i am writing above wont mean anything to most of u and u will just pass them by but even if one person is influenced to think of the ppl who are not at fault here that will be enough for me...i wish Greece started to produce and export i wish i could have my own family one day and not thing how i will be able to provide the basics for them, i am not lazy i have found job as a waitress and some other jobs here and there since i cant find a job in shipping which i have studied but the money from it are just enough to pay the bills and supermarket and to give to my mother which she cant find a job. and i am asking again why do i have to hear all these about Greeks/???? i hope u know that the ppl who dont pay taxes are the ppl aho are called the elite and have made millions over the years...middle class ppl which is about 90% of the population pay their taxes...but when those taxes go into pockets what are we supposed to do?? In case u haven't heard we are the same and a country doesnt mean we are different so stop it both of u Greeks and Germans...
    btw retirement is at 65 just saying..

    February 15, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
  49. Jack

    I love it how Greeks comment on this text and on other people, defending their honour and Greece and everything about Greece. How they state that people work hard, and it is not their fault, simply the private banks gave Greece a lot of money and the private banks and the EU should take responsibility, as Greece did. Dear Greeks, your country is bankrupt, you are the ones asking for the money from the banks and it is completely your fault. Do not ask for someone else to take responsibility for your actions, since you should have known better. You do not work hard, because if you did, you would not be in this situation. You are not honest people and you are not hard working. The reason why you are in this situation is because of yourselves and no one else.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
  50. Christopher

    As a Dane I find this dicussion whether it is Greece's og Germany's fault rather ridiculous. A lot of the debaters focus on things in the past (worldf war etc.) that isn't really relevant for Greece's current problems.
    We can agree that some of the loans issued to Greece shouldn't have been issued in the first place. However the main problem for Greece has not been created by foreign countries, the elite, multinational cooperations, Iluminati and all the other things you can come up with. The Greeks can only blame THEMSELVES.
    The problem is that you have a large inefficient public sector and unions that fails to realise the current situation. Greece wan't a rich country before the crisis but the population expected to live as such. You can compare Greece to all the low income private households aorund the world before the crisis who all took loans because they felt like they also deserved nice houses, new kitchens and new flat screens. That is fine if you can afford it. The problem was that Greece couldn't....
    Now the Greek population is blaming the elite, leaders and other countries. There is no doubt that the Greek leaders haven't served their country's interest. Had the Greek leaders been responsible they would have said to the voters that they have to work until they are 65, pay higher taxes and so on. The problem was that the Greek leaders didn't because they wanted to be reelected. But who is responsible in the end? The only one answer: The Greek voters!!! Greece is a democracy and therefore the responsibility is the people's own but the Greek people is no different than other people. People all over the world will always want more and they cast their vote with that in mind.

    That being said I do feel bad for the Greek people. My own country, Denmark, has a lot of the same issues as Greece. The only difference is that our public system, allthough way to big, is working rather well and more systematic and most important we had a good economy to start with.

    In recent years an old Danish saying has been revived: 'Sæt tæring efter næring', which roughly translates to 'Don't spend more than you earn'. This is what Greece should have done and has to do in the coming years.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
  51. Jack

    One more thing to add. You keep on saying that there will be anti german and anti france uprising in Greece. If you keep on the same path the same will happen in the rest of Europe, however it will be anti Greeks.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:11 pm |

    Apart from the fact that our reputation as fat, lazy e.t.c. is a big fat biased LIE of racist origin, i would like to underline that any kind of bankruptcy in greece will not be contained within its limits and is bound to metastasize all over EU. We, as europeans, have come a long long way trying to unite and face future challenges together and it would be a shame to compromise our vision of a united europe because of a temporary financial crisis.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:16 pm |
  53. Michael

    @Boheme Chinois
    Go outside and play, don't comment on things you do not understand.

    @An American
    Do you really think they are trying to save Greece? you, americans.. the most knowledgeable people on earth

    February 15, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
  54. Tina Vasiloudia

    I really don't get how some people have the guts to call Greeks lazy and whatnot.Most of the people in Greece have to work 2-3 jobs in order to receive half the money most of you would get in a part-time job and they still arent able to feed their kids and families.I am a teacher my self and I cannot even describe how bad it is to have kids starving at school and being dizzy due to the lack of proper nutrition.Schools cannot afford heating and the winter is pretty bad and parents cannot afford kids' proper clothing for the winter.Before any of you people say 1 thing about this country just come and live the way we do and then judge.I wish that none of you would ever have to live what we do.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
  55. Harry

    "Jack" regarding your bitter remarks about anti Greeks, bear in mind that when already wet you do not fear the rain.
    Let me make it clear for you: You will swim with the rest of us. We will make sure of it.
    You are as responsible as I and many other people are AND you will pay for it (through taxes or other wise).
    And that is why you are not in fact "Jack" but "Jack-ass"
    Ask the refund from Siemens and other German and european multinationals that paid off Greek politicians (that reminds you of something?) Last but not least: Rest ensured you and your "-ass" friends WE SHALL OVERCOME

    February 15, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
  56. TheSoul

    I have lived in Greece for the past 13 years...believe me Greeks are to be blamed...Yes there are hard, honest, working and disciplined people. But the society as a whole has fundamental problems: corruption is not only in the political circles but down to every day life...it is always a pain to go to public offices...corruption in hospitals...great laxity in implementing the laws and untouchable categories of people...I tell you I live here and this crisis was just a matter of time. We all knew that the system could not continue this way...

    February 15, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
  57. stella

    Greeks are breathing and so are the germans. They have families and so do the french.They are working 5 or 6 or 7 days a week 8 to 17 hours per day, they often have two jobs to make 1100 eurw per month or, more often, no job at all. The last five years greeks 24-28 years old with Ba and Mba Degrees and Phd, have to leave this country to get a job that can offer them more than 350 euro that's a common salary for young people in greece no matter their degrees. From these 350 euro, 100 goes to taxes before the salary is paid. So that leaves with 250 euro per month. For extra taxes per year greek people pay more or less 70% of our salary. To buy one bottle of milk, a bread and 1kg of potatos greek people have to pay 5 to 7 euro. I'm not reffering to those that have to pay a rent because they hardly manage to eat. We have a corrupted system, corrupted politicians and judges .We have no education and no health care, but we still are paying for these. Greeks , have a goverment that hasn't been elected by them, they have made a "deal" that they haven't even been asked for. Greeks have no dreams, no future, no smile, no hope, all they have , the past 2500 years, is dignity and the will to be independent. So before you start to estimate what germans, french and the rest europeans are doing for us greeks, you have to keep this in your mind: That WE, THE PEOPLE OF GREECE HAVE NEVER, EVER, ASKED FOR YOUR MONEY OR YOUR HELP.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
  58. Bohème Chinois

    I'd say let the Germans, Russians and Chinese buy up Greek Islands to pay the debt. That way, the Greeks will wise up and the responsible people who save and invest their money can enjoy those beautiful Mediterranean Islands.

    February 15, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
  59. Harry

    Stella...thumbs up! I concur

    February 15, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
  60. sotiris kostakis

    stella said everything we NEVER ASKED FOR YOUR MONEY WE D O N O T W A N T Y O U R M O N E Y !!! Your banks want to help our banks....your bankers want to help ours....every cent that we take from those loans goes to our politicians and to our bank system not to the people....we go on strikes 800000 peaceful people and your media show you 70 people paid from the government and come from the police who break and burn our beautiful and historical city....Wake up america people because u eat what they serve u.... I am 21 years old i cant leave without the help of my parents... i work 6 days per week 12 hours per day for 20 euros.... We are not lasy we are not whatever u say.....And be sure tha we are not afraid if someone comes to take our legacy we are here to fight back without thinking of the concequenses.....

    February 15, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
  61. Hermestheverygreat

    Probably, most of you writing here are well educated people from well known universities, in contrast with me that I am not. So, I am kindly requesting you to be gentle with my below comments:

    I feel really sad and angry, by reading here such offensive comments, which puts labels on citizens of a whole country. If we are going to act all of us by this “logic” then we should categorize peoples according to their nationality. Is this fascism or not?

    What kind of European UNION we have, when Greece or any other European country faces a crisis and then all the rest countries prefer to through them out? Does this reminds you a union?

    Should we act so roughly and immaturely for matters that effects the lives of millions of peoples?

    Should we treat others by the same way that we want them to treat us?

    Last and not least, what I know regarding this tragedy is that the Greek citizens are victims from some Greek politicians and from some highly positioned Greek government officers, who took the advantage of their position in order to benefit economically their selves, their families & their friends. Those corrupted persons are the illness of the Greek Democracy and they should pay for the debts and the crimes that are evolved, to the loaners and to the Greek citizens.

    February 15, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
  62. Gustuv

    What a remark Chinois,

    Are the Greek islands in the center of interrest, now?

    I think it is a very cheap remark and right to the target ! Well done, I wish you all the best when you' ll ever think of going to the Greek islands, but try not to mention what you've just said to the Greek islanders. You may have a speedy return back home...The foustanela says it all, you know. You know, it does !!!

    Aeraaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!!!

    February 15, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
  63. Antje Hage

    Apparently history classes were attended while asleep? Greece are just broke by themselves and Germany was forced into hyperinflation by the victors of the WW1. And it is the US which fcuked up the Versailles treaty.
    BTW Greek citizens are not the same as German citizens. That is why productivity in Germany is high and in Greece it is extremly low. The problem of Greece are the Greek. Not their neighbours.

    February 15, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
  64. Gustuv


    Do you happen to know how many times in the last two centuries the Greeks were forced into hyperinflation by victors?

    Read some history before you say such bulls. Thank God Greeks are not like Germans, drinking beer all day.

    February 15, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
  65. Eleni

    Confessions of a greek girl...

    Irony is bad, lack of solidarity is worse... What a dissappointment some of you are!!
    All you "Anti-Greek"s should think twice before saying another word about our country because what is happenning here at the moment, will soon be in your doorstep too. And don't give me the usual cr@p "Oh, we're hard working, it would never happen to us" etc because the current financial crisis is global and it WILL affect you too, be sure of it.
    Another point I would like to make is for all those ignorants who keep popping up out of nowhere and share their MEDIA BRAIN WASHED "OPINIONS" about how the Greeks do this and that... Spare us. We all know we've made mistakes. But please, allow us to know a lot better how we are or how hard we work, at what age we retire etc.
    We also know that the vast majority doesn't want your money, you ignorants! Don't make it look like we beg you! For God's sake!!! It's our politicians that accepted the money, despite the 1million+ people in the streets of Athens on Sunday that were demanding they wouldnt. So, our democracy is non-existant at the moment (FYI- the prime minister that lead that meeting is only an interim prime minister, ergo NON ELECTED, but imposed). The small percentage of the population that ACTUALLY WANTS to take the money is composed of corrupted party supporters or brain-washed by the media ( =litterally the government's pons here in Greece) people.
    And I've had enough seeing in the media everywhere, "journalists" saying that WE provoked riots in the streets of Athens and WE destroyed public and private property... OPEN YOUR EYES people... People were demonstrating peacefully. It was the police and secret forces, dressed-up as civilians and anarchists, HIRED BY THE GOVERNMENT to attack demonstrators, cause destructions so as to draw attention off what was being voted inside the parliament (no capital P...) It's common knowledge here in Greece and there are loads of evidence to that fact. It's been like that forever.

    Think twice before you cast a stone to the Greek people. On a global scale, this crisis is as much YOUR fault as it is OURS.

    February 15, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
  66. Gustuv

    Dear Kalyaja,

    I do agree that we all have to clean our mesh. I' d rather start with the Germans, though. Could they please, clean up the mesh they put the Greeks through war II ? I am talking about the war criminal acts and the compensations they owe them! It would be interesting to know your point to this.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
  67. Constantina Ak

    Dear Steven,
    It seems like you admire the "hungry tigers" of your past. I would like to assure you that the world is not threatened with a WWIII by the Greeks ( I don't think that the author of the article suggested something like that) not because we are weak but because it's not in our nature and culture to conduct crimes against humanity.
    Furthermore, i would like to encourage you to open your little disciplined german mind and answer this question. Why does your beloved government insists on cutting our already small wages, while obliges us to buy military equipment from your country?
    I would also like to assure you that the majority of Greek citizens demand the change of this corrupted system which was created by our governments and some external factors. I'm not saying that we don't share a responsibility but I assure you that most of us share the responsibility of not rebelling earlier against this corrupted system.
    Be sure dear Steven, that your money don't come in our pockets, they go to your weapon industries and banks and remember ... we pay your prosperity with our debt and I hate to think of what will happen when the German citizens loose their prosperity. I guess then you will come closer with the undisciplined Greeks.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
  68. stella

    Boheme Chinois, i'm homestly deeply sorry for what you're suggesting. Saving and investing you're money, doesn't make you responsible, it makes you a machine. One can be responsible by investing in ideals- freedom, love, honesty, equality, and so on.. I'm deeply sorry if "humans" like you are breathing the same air with me.. Money is only paper with sketches on it but my sea, my soil, my sky, my sun, my air, my marbles, my trees, my stones, my churches, my monuments, my people, my ideas, my mind, my friends, these are MY LIFE, these are MY COUNTRY. I'm sorry if you think that countries are properties for sale that can be bought by "responsible" people, they're not. I'm also sorry if you think that "responsible" people deserve or appreciate this land, my land more than we do. Spending two weeks of your life in flip flops, eating and drinking till you pass out doesn't make you good enough to even speak about this land. I grew up worshiping my sun and my sea, i'm living only to breath my air that smells like cedar, to see the olive trees grow, to hear the laugh of my little sister. The mediterranean islands, my greek islands are beautiful because God has blessed them with wealth but, for better or for worse, cursed with selfish people. However, we have been raised to appreciate our precious gift, to love and cherish every moment that we spent in our land, with or without food, with or without piece, with or without union, with or without flip flops.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
  69. Hermestheverygreat

    Dear Antje Hage,

    Greek citizens are not the same with German citizens? What's the difference? on the blood? or on the cleverness?

    February 15, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
  70. Eleni


    Well said girls.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
  71. Eleni

    @Antje Hage,

    "Greek citizens are not the same with German citizens"

    That kind of thinking got you to nazism. I guess you never got it out of your system...

    February 15, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
  72. chris

    Few answers
    The subs work fine,== uh they dont, check it again...they are unseaworthy

    and the guys from Siemens in Greece have been: Michael Christoforakos and Ilias Georgiou. Not some guys from Siemens in Germany ====Yes, they were just employees – managers, someone ordered them to get the money.

    Strangely, since WW2 all major projects in greece were given to german companies....they must be every lucky or not?

    February 15, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
  73. Gustuv

    @ Eleni

    Don't provoke them like that. Nazis is one thing and German citizens another. Nazis are bad and German citizens are good. So we have to thank the German citizens for their solidarity. Only, that their solidarity lays down new nazi tempers.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
  74. sotiris kostakis

    http://9gag.com/gag/2681884 part of the truth the other part is written on the comments below the photo....we are in the same place....united we stand dont forget that....WE ARE 99 % THEY ARE 1 % .....

    February 15, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
  75. Dimitrios Geroussis

    Among the commentators is probably a number of descendants of germans (funny there is also a chinois) who were stationed in the Hellenic islands during the occupation in WWII & told them how wanderfull they are. I can't explain otherwise their nostalgia/dream to get hold of the islands again.... well for the moment you poor crying germans stick to your Baltic & Northern sea resorts for you are not welcomed down here, we reseve the islands for friends only, so don't try anything funny for you will taste once more our tsarouhi (ask your grandfathers about it,,,,,)

    February 15, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
  76. Westwest

    The Greeks don't seem to be capable of accepting any responsibility for the mess they are in. Do you realize that the ridiculous claims of the "stolen" Greek gold only make people laugh? Greece was dirt poor before WWII, but we are to believe you had a massive gold reserve. The fact is that the little gold Greece had was taken out of the country BEFORE the German invasion. What happen to it... I don't know... but more than likely it was stolen by Greeks and not Germans.

    BTW... German submarines are so bad and useless, the Israeli navy prefers them to US submarines. The Leopard 2 tank is so awful, that the gun of the A1 Abrams tank of the US uses the same German gun as the Leopard.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
  77. stella

    Let's not start a conflict between nations here.. Germans are humans just like the rest of us and they of all people had been the most manipulated and misled through the centuries. What we want you to keep in mind is that all we want is to have a free country, be a free nation, set new funds for a new society, we don't want any financial help from europe, we are fighting every day against our own goverment that asked for your money, but they don't seem to get it. We are desperate people that want to be in charge of their fates, no matter what their fates will be, and i'm afraid that we'll take desperate measures in order to achieve that. i'm sorry that our lives had to be this way but the end of the world as we've known it is near..

    February 15, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
  78. Gustuv

    @ Westwest

    I see the point you are making over the gold. I don't see the same sensitivity over the lives of the Greeks who were lost during the war II. Its all gold to you, isn't it?

    As for the submarines. Do you happen to know any captain better than a Greek, one?

    Pathetic, isn't it.

    February 15, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
  79. Gustuv

    I ' d rather go. I expected the Germans to be more resourceful but they seem to shut up. Wonder why...They might have gone for their usual beer again. Cheers to all of you, people. There is always another day to come and that is tomorrow. Bye !!!!

    February 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm |
  80. Dimitrios Geroussis

    germans are not humans, they are just germans !!! they are the source of most evil things that came onto our world, WW I, WW II, Fascism (Hitler), Communism (Carl Marx) just to name a few of them, so Germans you are not welcomed to contemporary Europe unless you repent.......

    February 15, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
  81. scriss

    This analogy is a bit strained. Nobody is forcing Greece into concessions for political reasons – the rest of the EU simply want some sort of return on the money they loaned to Greece. The sad fact of the matter is that – they won't get their money back from Greece, or any of the other PIIGS. This is going to be a net loss for everyone.

    February 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
  82. Gaius Julius Caesar

    Greeks are a joke, have been since Rome conquered them in 171BCE. IT's convenient and easy to blame Germany which is the Superpower in europe for all of their monetary woes, instead of taking a long look at themselves and realizing that the blame falls squarely on them.

    No wonder Zeus, and your mighty gods abandoned you Greece, you are all lazy and corrupt buffoons.

    February 15, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
  83. Tom Taylor

    I feel many commentators are overestimating the size and the impact of Greece.I was there during the "colonel dictatorsship",and later many times to spendn vacation.I was sufrprised to see the number of expensive cars, new houses for tourists accomodation and theb poor infrastructure.Moreover the population qualifications and the quasi-total ignorance od foreign languages could not qualify Greece for the entrance in European Union.To add their church and their medieval position in the society can only aggravate the entire assessment

    February 15, 2012 at 5:08 pm |
  84. Dimitrios Geroussis

    @Gaius Julius Caesar
    .... your imperial majesty, Greeks cannot match you, BUFFOONWISE I mean.... you are the top buffoonist !!!!

    February 15, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
  85. Metaxis

    Greece is not beeing force to do anything at all,EU hand it some money in return for a promise to live within their own means.
    Greece as soverein state can refuse tomorow any help,leave euro,leave EU but cant expect others to pay its bills.
    Yet next day you leave EU youll have to be on your own and get paid in some quite worthless drachmas,and this troubles you re in now will feel like a holiday. So do it ,be brave and show to the world that Leonidas was a greeek.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
  86. Pavel

    Reading the discussion on this blog (and other sites) I really understand why the European Union can NEVER achieve the kind of cohesion and unity the U.S. enjoys.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
  87. MAK

    Versailles 1919 – Greece 2012? Sorry, but the reparations paid by Germany were to compensate for the destruction their army caused during the Great War. The razing of Leuven for example. In this case, the Germans, Dutch and other donor countries simply want to assure their tax payers that the money being handed over will go to a positive end and not simply be flushed into the Aegean.

    February 15, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
  88. Nick

    Guys, it is very sad that I read all these hostile words between us...
    Europeans (and not only, but I use this geographical term as it is the center of interest these days) are and should continue to be united as brothers since they share common history and have been the firehouse of the modern western civilized culture as we know it. Not only Greece but all European countries have played their role so far on this. All these people posting here, trying to create hostile feelings, are serving a role. Their role is to disunite and they will definitely pump happy feelings if they (or their government policies) see Eurozone and the strong Euro currency falling, i.e. if Europe returns 40 years back in time...

    Greece is running through a very tough moment of its history, some say it's like a war, especially for those that all these years worked hard and lived with honor and respecting the law. These people (I'm one of them) feel like they've been put in a cage. And these people share almost same feelings as most of you commenting on this article: disgust, betrayal, alone. These people are educated and have learned to respect and work for culture, freedom, humanity, solidarity, health and other European values. It has nothing to do with Germans, Greeks, Jewish Dutch whatsoever. We are living in Europe, working to sustain our economy and our currency and secure our future. It's not the people who should be blamed more than the politicians so It's really sad and depressing for me to see all these words flying around... pity.

    Closing, I would say that Greek politicians have done bad politics behind our backs, yes we all agree on that despite the fact that people don't deserve this treatment and penalty. But bear in mind, Greece has also been chosen to be the bad example for every non-disciplined country/government around the world... so I am not sure if the "pushing so far" is the proper term for something that has been decided already. That's some food for thought and not just conspiracy theory.... fear is very deeply planted to our feelings and suppress every footprint of pretension... Greeks are continuously being terrified with the fear of defaulting and returning to poverty. Germans are afraid to claim their rights in their salaries (salaries are frozen and not increased for many years now in Germany) in the sake of good economy and their bankers wealth. Americans are afraid of Muslims and terror attacks (that their government politics created) and so goes on...

    Think, act, unite!

    February 15, 2012 at 6:04 pm |
  89. Rusco

    Interesting. A lot of Greek nationalists evoking the memories and history of a Greece they have no connection to. The Greeks of today have no genetic or historical connection to the Greeks of 3000 years ago. Their biggest industries seem to be: cheating on taxes, feta cheese and blaming the Turks for their woes. At least the Turks are honest and industrious.

    February 15, 2012 at 6:12 pm |
  90. ptoumassis

    We, in Greece, live a horror... Most of the people don't have the money to pay all these new taxes... Me and my family, cannot even pay for the house we rent... My mother was receiving money for about 20% of the rent cost from an organism called O.E.K., but this organism – they say – will no longer exist, after Troika's demand... We should have received this money months ago, but they delayed and delayed... My sister is divorced and she and her two chlildren live in the same house with me and mother. I have lost my job... All bills increace, all products cost more and more from one day to the other... Living all together, we pay penalty to the water company, because we spend "too" much water. The same happens with electricity... We try hard, but I do not see how we can make it finally. I wach many similar cases on the tv, here... People shouting on screen... Troika doesn't see? What do they try to do, really? I have a fiance. Twice we had the chance to bare a baby, but we went to the doctor to prevent pregnancy... We do not have money to live together, though I love this woman and she loves me... This happens to other Greeks too. What will happen in the future? Our population will decreace dramatically soon! Nobody makes a comment on that, but it is true... I try hard but wherever I could work the salary is 490 euros... No solution for me... Even if I could find a job, the money would not be enough for everything!!! I am 50 years old and I am not sure when I shall have to live in the streets...

    February 15, 2012 at 6:46 pm |
  91. WAKE UP PLS!!

    There is only one ENEMY against of us all!!!Who raised more than half of the WORLD's WEALTH over the years threw wars,corruption and imaginary money,holding every major mass media ,worldwide, under their control,existing like ghosts hunting down innocent souls and murdering anyone dared to stand up against them???????????
    ---------------->>>>THE HOUSE OF ROTHSCHILD<<<<-----------------–

    February 15, 2012 at 7:01 pm |
  92. peter ioannoy

    Ευρωκοινοβούλιο-Ντανιέλ Κον-Μπεντίτ: Δώστε στην Ελλάδα αυτά που της χρωστάτε
    Πρόκειται για τον μεγάλο φιλέλληνα και αγαπητό φίλο Ντάνιελ Κον-Μπέντιτ, ο οποίος με χαροποίησε για μια φορά ακόμα σήμερα το βράδυ. Πριν από λίγο στις γερμανικές ειδήσεις παρουσίασαν και την άλλη όψη της Ευρώπης, όχι μόνο αυτή της Μερκοζί (πότε επιτέλους θα διαλύσει αυτή η συμμαχία;). Δυστυχώς αυτά δε φτάνουν στην κοινή
    γνώμη των Γερμανών, αφού το κατεστημένο φροντίζει να μην "πάρει μυρωδιά" ο Φριτς και η Μόνικα, τι ακριβώς συμβαίνει γύρω του. Την ψήφο τους θέλει η Μέρκελ και θα τους την πάρει, όπως φαίνεται. Ο φίλος μου ο Ντάνιελ είπε όμως απευθυνόμενος προς τους συντηρητικούς βουλευτές στο ευρωκοινοβούλιο ότι θα πρέπει να μάθει η κοινή γνώμη όλη την αλήθεια: η Γερμανία πήρε με το ζόρι 450 εκατ. από την Ελλάδα και τα έφερε στο Βερολίνο χωρίς να ρωτηθεί ούτε ένας Έλληνας. Αυτά τα χρήματα, που σήμερα ξεπερνούν με τους τόκους και ανατοκισμούς τα 86 δισεκατομ. ευρώ οφείλει η Γερμανία να τα επιστρέψει. Αυτό τουλάχιστον θα πρέπει να το ξέρουν οι Γερμανοί και να μην αποκρύπτεται. Αυτά τα είπε μεγαλοφώνως και με έμφαση ένας Γερμανός ευρωβουλευτής, ενώ κανένας έλληνας βουλευτής και από κανένα κόμμα, ούτε της ευρωβουλής ούτε της ελληνικής βουλής, δεν μπόρεσε να προβάλλει αυτή την ελληνική θέση στους Γερμανούς.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:34 pm |
  93. yeoryia

    Ο πολιτισμός της ανθρωπότητας ξεκίνησε από την Ελλάδα και θα πεθάνει στην Ελλάδα ! Έχω την εντύπωση πως στις άλλες χώρες του πλανήτη,ζούν άνθρωποι...για το αυτό κανείς να μην χαίρεται για την κατάληξη της Ελλάδος διότι επέρχεται και η δική του παρακμή ! Λυπάμαι ως άνθρωπος που κάποιοι,από τα βάθη της ιστορίας, προσπάθησαν να φέρουν την Ελλάδα στην παράκμασή της πρόωρα και βίαια ! we are not Greeks, we are HELLAS ! (δεν είμαστε Γρεκοί... είμαστε ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ! ) and finally we are not without reason complainer ... :)

    February 15, 2012 at 7:35 pm |
  94. Vasiliki

    I am a 23 year old girl and I am studing computer and electrical engeneering in National Techological University of Athens. I'll share with you my opinions about this article and the comments followed it. This article shares an opinion about the analogy generally made between Germany in 1919 and Greece in 2012. Comments below the article point that this comparison cannot be made simply because Germany was defeated and had to pay the consequences and Greece has chosen to ask for help from the EU and the IMF. I personally believe that this comparison is valid, simply because of the fact the terms of the treaty of Versailles and the terms of the momerandum are the same hideous and shameful for the peoples of the two countries.
    I would like also to comment on how almost every northern European here writes and critisizes Greek people (lazy, fat etc). For many yaers the Greeks, Portuguese, Spanish and Irish – though a little- were told pigs by other Europeans, with no thought or solidarity whatsoever. Stereotyping is the beginning of every kind of racism and Germans should know better, before judge anyone. They tent to see how awful we are, but they oversee the efforts made by Greeks in many areas. There are numerous Greek scientis, engeneers, doctors, farmers trying to improve Greece and they stay in Greece, even though the opportunities and the situations are difficult. There is also the same large number of people that work all over the world and contribute worldwide. These efferts are not known to the people because the mass media provide only the image of the bad greek who spends good german's money. So I suggest to all these to search the truth before they speak.
    In conclusion, I would like to write something about those who say that WWII compensations are irrelevant. My grandpa is 94 years old. He fough in WWII and got wounded by a bullet. He was trasfered to Roupel's stronghold to fight again and by the end of the German invasion he was at Crete fighting. Nowadays he used to get the lower pension of 496E, 100E are the honory benefit for fighting in WWII and the participation in national resistance against the invaders. Last month, he went to the bank to get paid. The cashier gave him his pension, it was 400E. He didn't mind but he noticed the cashier could not look him in the eyes. He aked what was going on and he was told the benefit was cut down and there was not any need for that. When he returned home he was devastated. He open an old chest where he held his old military uniform. He hadn't opened for years. He took the uniform out and wore it, just to feel better. Just to know again that he had fought for the country and its freedom. By chance, the tv was open by the time and the German minister of economic affairs was something about useless benefits in pensions and salaries in Greece. He shouted at the screen: "Sure, my benefits is useles for you. But remember I fough and won your father on the Greek mountains. That is something noone can take if from me". He still is sad and desperate about what happend. His felt betraited but his pride is still there. I think he wouldn't to have his pension reduced but not this particular benefit. This incident shows how cruel are those who think these oppression meters. So it is relevant to speak about German compensation and how some people consider this situation as a new German occupation.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:37 pm |
  95. peter ioannoy

    European Parliament-Daniel Cohn-Bendit: give in Greece those of you
    This is the large φιλέλληνα and dear friend Daniel Cohn-μπέντιτ,
    who I am pleased once again this evening.
    A moment ago to the German news presented the flip side of Europe,
    Not only of μερκοζί (when we will finally break this alliance?).
    Unfortunately these do not reach the joint opinion of the Germans,
    After the status quo will ensure that no 'take smell of Fritz and Monica,
    What is happening around.
    The vote the wants Merkel and to take, as it appears. My friend Daniel said
    But addressing the Conservative Members in the European Parliament that we should
    to learn the joint opinion throughout the true : Germany took with grudgingly 450 Mio ECU.
    by Greece and brought in Berlin without ρωτηθεί nor a Greek.
    This money, which today exceed with interest and ανατοκισμούς 86 billion.
    Euro owed by Germany to pay it back.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
  96. Rusco

    sorry Yeoryia. Greek civilization died over 2000 years ago. Today's Greeks are just migrants from different regions who physically inhabit modern day Greece. They have nothing in common with Alexander the Great et al.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
  97. Vasiliki

    I'm sorry I forgot a verb. I meant to say: I think he wouldn't mind to have his pension reduced but not this particular benefit.

    February 15, 2012 at 7:48 pm |
  98. yeoryia

    sorry Rusco but I'm not talking about blood, but an idea that evolution has brought us and each person should respect! according to your own point of view we are what we eat! I speak the same language as Aristotle, Socrates, Plato and I understand and share their views on this ... just enough for me to tell you I'm Greek!

    February 15, 2012 at 8:25 pm |
  99. Constantina Ak

    Thoughtless words from thoughtless people. You are just reproducing the propaganda you are fed by your governments and media. I guess having this opinion about Greeks makes you feel better about yourselves. I thought humanity overcame racism a long time ago. Hold on to your stereotypes, it will help you to keep your consciousness clean while people from the south loose their human rights

    February 15, 2012 at 8:56 pm |
  100. George

    Special thanks to Germany grabbed the gold from the Bank of Greece when he had conquered Greece during the Second World War. Also thank you for giving us the opportunity the same time lend them several billion drachmas, as Germany and Italy signed the occupying government default loan agreement in which Greece had to pay a monthly sum of 1.5 billion drachmas for costs of occupation. (As shown by the letter of the Bank of Greece, dated March 16, 1943 the amount of the loan by then amounted to 300 billion drachmas. The German occupation lasted until October 1944).
    We also thank the European Union in Schengen Treaty does not allow thousands of immigrants coming to Greece from other countries where there is war or famine, continue their way to go to countries like (Germany, England, France, America etc) and thus remain in Greece.
    One of the 95% of Greeks happy. I happened to study at University, working for 30 years over 70 hours per week (90% of people work more than the German equivalent employees) from this work I collect 15,000 euros a year, I pay taxes and compulsory public insurance over 8,000 per year and will retire in 65 years (like 80% of people)!
    The remaining 5% of people who are lazy and corrupt and they get their pension at 50 years, is also usually friends of corrupt politicians who governed and govern Greece and who acquired the German or American multinational companies and banks.

    February 15, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
  101. Fay Mereli


    February 15, 2012 at 10:27 pm |
  102. Soc

    The main article is indeed STUPID ! At least for someone who knows the situation within Greece. The only true part is the one about the economic destruction of the country.All the rest are either ...not so true , either meaningless. I am surprised to read such a crappy article on CNN. I expected to read something misleading, but never something like this
    I think that he/she who wrote that did not spend more than 20 mins on it.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
  103. ana

    The excellent article Sir Richard.Yeah, a history usually teach us. From nearly each situation you can find an exit. But the vision and the wisdom/prudence of the leaders are always crucial things for the ruling/making a decision. It´s no use crying over spilt milk!

    February 15, 2012 at 11:06 pm |
  104. Berleburg

    There is no comparison. If you would like a small peak someone can read "The Road Back" by Erich Remarque. The country was in full blown revolution with no real government to keep order, they were hiding in Weimar to escape the "civil war" that had broken out on the streets of Berlin. It was communists vs. nationalists, Spartikus vs. Freikorp, and everyone was trying to keep from starving to death due to the great strain of the war. I found a cookbook recently in a used book shop that was from the turnip winter of 1917, these were mass produced because that was all there was to eat and that went into 1919. Germany was forced to sign whatever the allies came up with or the war would start again but by that point there was no leadership to provide for a defence. Yes from all of this came the NSDAP and the horrors that would follow, but no one can say that Greece today is anything remotely like Germany after WWI. When Greece is dropped from the Euro and they must cover over their stamps 2 euro stamps with 5 trillion, then we can start to talk.
    Also Germany didn't start WWI, if you would notice that Serbia actually did while being backed by Russia who was backed by France. When Germany crossed the Ardennes in 1914 both France and Russia were already mobilizing for war. You shouldn't put blame for a war on the people with the technology to move their military quickly enough to strike the first blow after the gloves have come off.
    As for reparations for the second world war, then you may go to all those who were at least 16 years old of older at the time and ask those still living today for your money. WE had nothing to do with it and should not have to pay for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers. You have squandered what has been given to you for too long, it is time to say enough is enough. Who will you turn to next after you have sucked Germany dry? What will the Union look like economically if we decide to leave it? Ask yourself that before you attack us for trying to save us all from the likes of Greece.

    February 15, 2012 at 11:19 pm |
  105. Soc

    @ ana
    the "ecxellent" article is full of mistakes (to put it nicely)
    The comparison is miserable – .......................
    can;t you see that ! Deamn!!

    February 15, 2012 at 11:23 pm |
  106. zedan

    Strangest way to the marriage application

    February 15, 2012 at 11:48 pm |
  107. ZMT123

    This article is biased. Germany had it much worse after WWI. Greece will never become nationalists. There is no reason for them to do so. That's suicide. And anyway, they are a part of NATO.

    February 16, 2012 at 2:28 am |
  108. GG

    Just wondering why Troika will not allow Greece to cut military spending? Is it possible German military suppliers would lose billions in deals? One more thing about a comment made near the top implying that Greeks would become extreme nationalists and invade European nations: when Turkey invaded Cyprus, Greece did very little to stop the invasion, yet at the time they had a dictatorship. If occupation of Cyprus was not enough, how about the fact that the real capital city of Greece is Konstantinople/Istanbul. How about Skopye that keeps on provoking Greeks on the use of name Macedonia... they could have invaded that country as well. Greece and Greeks 1000's of years ago realized that war does no one any good. They also realized that civil war is equally destructive as they lost more lives in their civil war than they did in the previous three wars (Balkan, WWI & WWII). This is why they stopped asking for WWII damages from Germans, as well as the repayment of loans for German rebuilding after WWII. Today of course Germany has made 45 billion euros from taking advantage of Greece's, Spain's and Portugal's position. That is the key difference between Northern and Southern European nations. Southern European nations offer compassion and financial help to the North when they needed it with no gains, whereas the North offers only financial help but only for a profit. France belongs to the south, but currently its head of government is occupied by German mentality.

    February 16, 2012 at 3:48 am |
  109. ioanna


    February 16, 2012 at 4:58 am |
  110. Anestis

    @Berleburg you said:
    "WE had nothing to do with it and should not have to pay for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers. You have squandered what has been given to you for too long, it is time to say enough is enough. Who will you turn to next after you have sucked Germany dry? What will the Union look like economically if we decide to leave it? Ask yourself that before you attack us for trying to save us all from the likes of Greece."

    So with your thinking the money we now borrow from EU my children and grandchildren would never pay back, cause if they think like you theyd say:
    "WE had nothing to do with it and should not have to pay for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers."
    Karma bites you in the a** my german friend :P

    February 16, 2012 at 6:01 am |
  111. Gustuv


    Nice talking, sir. Would you tell us when the Germans send their royals to Greece and for what reason? Why are all your museums full of Greek Marbles and archeological remains? Come on we know what you did. Even after the war II there were hudrends of ex-soldiers and their relatives from Germany with maps on hand, coming after graved fortunes under our land, hidden by them while we were occupied by them in the war II. Do you know how many times we happened to arrest them while they were searching with detectors?

    Was it Hitler again who was doing it? No, it was the poor Germans, who knew nothing about steeling us.

    It is a shame and very pathetic that there has been nothing for you to learn from the past.

    Even history is twisted over your interests for economic growth. You colaborated with the strongest European Economies, built aerospace mammouth companies with them, left no space or solidarity to other European members, sucked their blood instead and now you pretend you did everything right. I wonder what the Germans schools are telling you. Porkies, I suppose, like your sausages. Have a look at the largest aeroplane manufacturer in the world and its orders from all over the world. A dance of billions !!! Which countries are members of this manufacturing trust or cartel? Which countries are eliminated by you and other powerful countries, in Europe? There is nothing worse than a financial elimination. You said it somehow when you remarked that you shouldn't pay for the sins of your copatriots. Why should we pay for your colaborations when you take all the pie from our hands and want to have it all for yourselves. If you are refined Europeans you should open the procedures for any European country member to participate for growth.

    What you do though is keep it all for yourselves. I am not blaming you though. I blame the rest of the Europeans who have colaborated with you and for whom you say nothing but nothing about their deficit which it is miles ahead from ours. It is always the poor one can launch misiles to. Like you do to all poor countries which have high resistors to growth. One thing amazes me. You put commisioners looking after human rights, with the European community blessings. Like you do with Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libanon, Palestine, Irak, Iran, Afganistan. The atrocities you comment to poor countries is never importnant for you. You always want to flood them with deficits so you can play the game of the big brother who cares but also wants to rule them and sell your dirty weapons made by the stolen steel and other minerals you so innocently steel from them.

    One more thing I would like to ask. Have they ever told you any of the above, at your schools or universities.

    No ! This is why I feel sad for you. Because it will be "GOD" to whom you will talk to after all.

    And then you will be looking for crosses to have in hand. You'd better search for the crosses the German soldiers were wearing in the necks, in the war II. You'd better start digging their graves, instead of telling us what to do. We sleep without fear to "GOD" and the cross is always in our mind because we still feel crossified by your so called grown countries.

    Shame on you!

    February 16, 2012 at 7:56 am |
  112. Christophe HIRTZ


    This article underline very well the risks of the multiple interventions of the EU in Greece. it's Good that you dug out the Versailles treaty similarities. There is room for debates around what you write. But debate is good, and nobody can’t say that they didn’t got informed. You are raising my attention on this type of issues and I think it's a hell of a good input your are providing me.

    Thanks man !


    February 16, 2012 at 8:19 am |
  113. ana

    An addition to the brilliant article Sir Richard...an each age demands the new people and the new approach. What is crucial for the making decisions/rulling are an ability to be well ahead of your time....

    February 16, 2012 at 8:43 am |
  114. mitsos

    Germany sucks!

    February 16, 2012 at 8:57 am |
  115. Gustuv

    @aletta-maria van Luyn

    Wellsaid Aletta !!! Wellsaid...only I would add...

    Denmark spent little on defence during the 1930s and when the German Army invaded on 9th April 1940 the armed forces were defeated on the first day. Most of the Danish merchant fleet escaped and sailed to Allied ports. Over the next four years 60 per cent of these ships were sunk by the German Navy and around 600 Danish sailors were killed transporting Allied supplies.

    Denmark was forced to supply Germany with food and raw materials. This created problems for the Danish economy and the country suffered from price inflation and the government was forced to impose food rationing.

    Opposition to the German occupation grew and anti-Nazi newspapers began to appear in Denmark. The resistance helped nearly all Denmark's 8,000 Jews were helped to escape to Sweden and in 1943 the Freedom Council, an underground government, was established.

    Denmark was liberated by Allied forces on 5th May 1945.

    Can ever Germany repay you for all this?

    February 16, 2012 at 9:07 am |
  116. Berleburg

    My point is that the Germany of today is not the Germany of WWII. There are very few still alive who lived through that time at an age in which they would have understood what was going on. A person who was born the day the war was over is now 66, will you hold a retiree responsible for the crimes committed before they were even born? You speak of massive amounts of Gold, i believe you will find that the Swiss and Americans made off with almost all of that. Will you go to them and ask for it back? As for loans for rebuilding after the war you should be complaining to the Americans, who were the ones who decided how the Marshal Plan money would be distributed.
    As far as understanding our past we are quite informed of what our country did in the past and that is why we are committed to seeing that it never happens again. In Greece, do they teach about all of those who collaborated with us during the war and profited from it, or do you like to sweep that history under the rug like the French, Dutch and most other countries who were occupied at the time. We have learned from our mistakes and only wish to make Europe a united and strong force in the world economy, but when one among us wishes to squander the opportunities given them by this stronger, more united Europe then we must take charge to protect the rest of us.
    Why should we allow all of the Greek people to come to Germany that want to? So that they may come here and ruin our country financially like they have ruined their own? Its amazing how you want our help but hate us for doing it the way we feel is best. Greek people who never witnessed the horrors of the war are raised to hate a people that also never witnessed the war. Will you still be hating us in a hundred years, and will you still even understand your hate? We do not hate you but wish you would understand what we do now has nothing to do with what was done nearly 70 years ago. Deal with that fact and either work with us or against us, but if you choose to work against us then you have no one to blame but yourselves.

    February 16, 2012 at 9:13 am |
  117. Vasiliki M.

    we don't sell anything,we won't let anyone to take anything that belongs to our home ELLADA please make it clear to yourselves!!
    !Now I really don't understand this poison of your tongue against Greeks.What is your problem anyway?? Do you really believe whatever they say to you. Can't you see what really happens here? Firstly is the strategic location of the Greece and the resources they want and on the other hand its the beginning of the domino to collapse the European union and economy of the members. Behave yourselves please. We fight to change what happens here what You gonna do? This crisis is global. Think before you speak. ΥΠΟΜΟΝΗ, ΔΥΝΑΜΗ ΚΑΙ ΚΟΥΡΑΓΙΟ ΣΤΟΥΣ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ .

    February 16, 2012 at 9:15 am |
  118. Gustuv

    My suggestion of the day !

    If we all are Europeans, lets join together, under one goverment. Let our economies be controlled by one European Party.
    Lets have one monitoring administrative system. One tax police. One court of justice. One Army. One police. One border. One language. One job. One new start all together.

    This way we will get rid of incapable politicians from Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and elswhere who are commiting fraud and bribery, once and for all.

    Mr. Wolfgang Schäuble, do you agree with this? If not, then I am afraid you want...One Germany. One Economy. One rule.

    The German boot rule, from the past and fraud and bribery to continue.

    February 16, 2012 at 9:29 am |
  119. Berleburg

    I no European Federation. The Confederation is better both economically and culturally. If the Greeks wish to wallow in their hate for the Northern Europeans then they should be dropped from the Union all together and left to fend for themselves. Perhaps then they may learn from their economic mistakes instead of placing all the blame on others. Cut them off entirely and see how long they last without the manipulative, greedy Northerners. Perhaps the can go to the Americans with their hat in their hands and get some help.

    February 16, 2012 at 9:48 am |
  120. Gustuv


    You said it all ! This is the Europe you want to live in. Careful though ! The time may come really quick, like back in 1945. And I gurantee you, nobody but nobody will show any mercy to you for a second time.

    February 16, 2012 at 10:01 am |
  121. Berleburg

    @ Gustuv

    I am sure that the Greeks would be fine with you plan to get rid of their language for I am guessing English. Perhaps you are fine with cultural destruction of the European countries but I and many, many people throughout Europe are not.

    As far as another war, Greece can bring it! I am pretty sure no one would lift a finger to help them if they wish to go to war with Germany over this.

    February 16, 2012 at 10:13 am |


    February 16, 2012 at 10:22 am |
  123. Gustuv

    @ Berleburg

    The Greeks never forget their language. They learn even Ancient Greek like you do in your universities, because it is the only language which talks about philosophy, democracy and science, all unknown to you.

    Perhaps a cultural destruction is only on your mind. And that is because culture my friend is never destructed by anyone. Only, by sick minds. And that is because it is a virgin extract of civilisation and not criminal acts.

    As for the comment about the war, I don't think Greece is capable of bringing any war other than that of wanting to be at the forefront of clearing up the smell of politics and grown countries dependance strategies.

    February 16, 2012 at 10:41 am |
  124. Someone

    @Berlebug You said: "As for reparations for the second world war, then you may go to all those who were at least 16 years old of older at the time and ask those still living today for your money. WE had nothing to do with it and should not have to pay for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers. You have squandered what has been given to you for too long, it is time to say enough is enough."

    And in the same way WE have nothing to do with a debt that has been make in the time of or fathers. Specifically the debt began our "socialist" politician "Andreas Papandreou", who is now dead! And cannot pay for it! We have nothing to to with a debt taken when we were 5 and 10 years old!!!

    February 16, 2012 at 11:01 am |
  125. Someone

    @Berlebug You said: "As for reparations for the second world war, then you may go to all those who were at least 16 years old of older at the time and ask those still living today for your money. WE had nothing to do with it and should not have to pay for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers. You have squandered what has been given to you for too long, it is time to say enough is enough."

    And in the same way WE have nothing to do with a debt that was created in the time of our fathers. Specifically the debt began our "socialist" politician "Andreas Papandreou", who is now dead! And cannot pay for it! We have nothing to to with a loan taken when we were 5 and 10 years old!!!

    February 16, 2012 at 11:02 am |
  126. Berleburg

    @ Gustuv

    Is that why so many more modern philosophers that are discussed in universities all spoke German, why so many discussions of Democracy usually revert to English, and for the technological increases of the last 200 years have relied on English, French and German to be spread across the globe. It is funny though that only democracy is understood by the Greeks but did they not have a dictatorship not THAT long ago. All societies have made mistakes in their history, its those who except those mistakes and move on who grow. Those who dwell in the past and push all the blame on others who will be ultimately destroyed by their own ignorance.

    February 16, 2012 at 11:04 am |
  127. Someone

    You said "My point is that the Germany of today is not the Germany of WWII. There are very few still alive who lived through that time at an age in which they would have understood what was going on. A person who was born the day the war was over is now 66, will you hold a retiree responsible for the crimes committed before they were even born?"

    And Greece of today is not Greece of previous generation. When the loans were taken we were 5-10 years old or even hadn't been born! And could not possibly decide for anything!

    February 16, 2012 at 11:10 am |
  128. Gustuv

    Hopeless to talk about human solidarity to people who dislike human.

    Hopeless to talk about Archimedes Screw which invented back in 300 B.C., to those who have not invented anything better than that for 23 centuries, now.

    Dear Berleburg, did you know that dictatorship was cultivated by the monarchism in Greece which is the root of the German royal family? Read some history, please, before you say such bulls.

    February 16, 2012 at 11:17 am |
  129. stella

    @ Berlebung
    I can understand your way of thinking.. I can understand that you are feeling angree, i understand that you are NOT resposnible for the acts of your grandparents and i can assure you nobody blames you young germans for that- at least not me-. I also get that you don't actually want our countries or any country to start a war but our friend gustav is pussing here.. I believe that you have a strong point when you say that you are trying to find a way to make us return your hard earned money, because it's your money, actually, money that you paid through taxes to your goverment and they gave to us,while YOUR salaries are not rising the last 10 years. Trust me, friend , i understand.
    That's exactly what i feel every day of every week..Because this is what is happening to me.. I'm working since i was 14 years old, i'm studying in two universities, i have a 6-membered family, my parents are now unemployed after 40 years of hard work, my sister is 11 years old and my brothers have to stop studying to get to the military. And now i'm told that every money i will ever make in my whole life are going to pay a debt that I hadn't agreed to, I hadn't been asked for. And yet, i'm not blaming Germany at all, because the people of germany have every right to be angree, the truth is they didn't owe us a thing but yet you are paying for us.. But my friend Berleburg, i don't want you pay for me.. I really, honestly, don't want your money.. I, stella, want to be treated as a human being that is not judged by dangerous stereotypes, as i'm not judging you for being a german. I want my work and my studies to be valued for their worth and not depending on what media says for me.. Because media have never met me, stella, and have never met you Berlebung. I would never come to your country to work, although i really like berlin, beacause i simply like my country very much. Although i already know that if i stay here i can never have a proper job or have a family or children. My generation, that had'n been asked for all these things is cursed to extinct or to migrate.. Shouldn't i be angree?
    It's a lie that we want to leave the union, but we're not willing to stay if it's not actually a UNION. Us leaving would get your money back in your pockets, as the loans have been insured and you'll never spend any of your nations money for us. And then we all be happy.. I wouldn't have a life, certainly, or money, or food for a period of time, but my children will have a country and we would start from there..
    As for greek cooperations with the nazis back in the WWII we are aware of that but it seems that our government hadn't learn from those shameful acts and repeating the same pattern over the years..
    All in all, and i'm leaving this converrsation as it's not leading anywhere, you are not us and we are not you. We can never get your way of life or thinking although you are being admired for that, in Greece when somebody is working hard, efficienlty and professionally we say "he works like a german"- and you can never understand our need to be independent even if we are poor and alone, as it's said, "heroes fight like Greeks", although that's too much really..
    But yes, i'm sorry my friend, we don't want your help at all or your money, we want you to have the life that you've worked for, we want you to be paid for what you deserve as the best workers, the best professionals and certainly we don't want you to pay for us, decide for us, judge us.. We want to fight for our and YOUR right to live as humans and not like slaves, for a job that worth something, that has to offer something to society. And maybe we won't change a thing, and maybe we are too little to be heard but unfortunately, it's in our greek dna not to be fat, lazy and corrupted but to be stubborn, egoists, reactive and freedom seekers.

    February 16, 2012 at 11:38 am |
  130. Gustuv

    @ everyone

    Please, stop picking on Mr.Berleburg !

    He is not the problem !

    The problem is those who taught him so.

    He hadn't had to live in a house like my grandmum's which had been bombired by the German Navy, back in WW II, which for unknown reason she and her family had no money to repair it even twenty five years after. I saw it all, as a five years old kid. And then dictatorship hit us...all organized by the German stem, living us no space to breath and grow. GIVE US BACK OUR YOUTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That's what you should do. Our dreams, our freedom to grow our children up.

    February 16, 2012 at 11:53 am |
  131. Berleburg


    I have to go to work but remember our country was destroyed by the war as well. Entire cities reduced to rubble by British and American bombs. I am not saying we did not deserve it but saying that we do not understand another persons point of view by only comparing bomb craters is ignorant. If you wish to bring everyone together then you should stop trying to divide with your unquenchable hate. As far as any attempts to link your dictatorship with our monarchy, perhaps you should read a history book and see that we got rid of our monarchy in 1918 and the Kaiser fled to Holland. The British and Danish Royal families have more control over their Greek relatives then the Germans do.

    February 16, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
  132. Gustuv

    @ Berleburg

    You understood nothing !

    I have no hate for you neither for your nation, nor with any people or nation on earth. I want to have the right to go to my work like you do. I do not want troica and Merkel with their politics to stop me from working and feeding my kids, like they are doing, at present. We run a crisis because of that for almost 4-years. That's enough.

    We do not want anything from the Germans ! We are a proud nation and proud enough not to want anything from you.

    Stop bothering us though, with your dirty politics.

    February 16, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
  133. Constantinos

    Yes, Greeks are hard working people... about half of them, those who work in the private sector. The other half also try to do some work when they aren't too busy taking bribes, reading the newspaper or going for a smoke...

    February 16, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
  134. Hoernerice

    When you dont want something from us or someone else, then leave the € and EU. We cant kick you.

    February 16, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
  135. Hoernerice

    To Article....Germany 1919 and Greece now...realy?...which nations wanted to help (if welcome or not is not the question) Germany after ww1? We just paid reparation back 2 years ago. Plz stop comparing apples with pears. And would be Germany today something nearly same like it was 1939 im sure, the British and the US would shout loud.
    Take it or not. This situation hasnt have happen before in history. So looking for the past for a solution OR to prove that the try of sloving problem is wrong cant work.

    February 16, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
  136. Constantinos

    I also believe that this article tries to compare two situations in history that are completely different. As a Greek I can tell you that we reached this point after decades of over borrowing and over spending.
    For example yesterday the president of the Greek republic announced that he didn't want to receive any more money as compensation for being president.
    He did very well to say that, but it was also revealed that he was being paid more money annually than the American president!
    Everyone should know that the root of the problem is and always was that politicians were handling vast amounts of money coming through the EU, for their own political gains. And the Greek people allowed them to do that because they also benefited from that, maybe more than the politicians.

    February 16, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
  137. Andrew MacLachlan

    One of my students who is studying IB Diploma history found this article for me the other day. He has translated a portion of it from German. But it is pretty interesting that there are close parallels dating back 154 years!
    His message also contains a link to the article:

    Without any benefit for the country
    Greece in 1858

    From the FAZ, here in translation:

    The French writer Edmond About noted the following about the Greek situation, back in 1858:

    "Greece is the only known example of a country that has been insolvent since it came into existence. If France or England would find themselves in a comparable situation for only one year, they would face catastrophy. But Greece ... Greece has been at peace with its insolvency for 20 years [Modern Greece was established in 1830]. All Greek budgets, from the first through the last, show a deficit.

    If a civilized county fails to cover its expenditures by receipts, it proceeds to borrow money internally, from its own people. The Greek government never tried to do that, and for a good reason - it would have failed. The protecting powers of Greece [Great Britain, among others] had to guarantee the solvency of Greece so that it could borrow in the international markets.

    Subsequently, the money raised is squandered by the government without any benefit for the country, and the protecting powers have to cover the interest payments themselves. Greece cannot pay."


    February 16, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
  138. Gustuv


    You are wrong my friend. I want you to pay us for your criminal acts of WW II. Like you have paid everybody other country.

    Who gives a dam for the € !

    Then we can kick you, once and for all.

    February 16, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
  139. Athinean

    German hard-workers, I can see you writing here, so maybe you are not so hard -workers. So stop putting comments and go to work sometime! The Greeks are jobless or lazy and have plenty of time to wirte here.You go to produce goods in order to export to Greece for us to buy and feed you!
    And you Mr "nothing" that you suggest to buy Greek islands, look at your self, you probably belong to the majority that has money only for eating and nothing more, not even to buy a book to open your miserable mind, you better work for the elite that can buy this and leave yourself outside of things that you are not allowed even think of them.
    Now, you feel miserable because you just understood the state that you are in, similar to ours, eh? And your solutions is , people ara hungry? let them die... Hitler was a peaceful sheep comparing to you...
    I hope all of us understand the situation and finally be free, all of us, including Germans and Americans as well.
    May God's love be with us!

    February 16, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
  140. Gustuv


    You are wrong my friend. I want you to pay us for your criminal acts of WW II. Like you have paid every other country, in Europe.

    Who gives a dam for the € !

    Then we can kick you, once and for all.

    February 16, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
  141. Gustuv


    What's wrong with your keyboard. Can't you type any words anymore?

    February 16, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
  142. antonis

    I'm half Greek half German and I'm TIRED to read this stupid comparison to nazi-Germany. May I ask what Greece has been offering to the European Union during the last 30 years ? They never gave a cent a got billions of support for infrastrucutre and agriculture. Look at all this greek farmers driving luxury cars ! By the way, most of this money came indirectly from Germany.

    February 16, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
  143. Someone

    @antonis and I am TIRED to read about how much money "Greece" has taken "during the last 30 years". Who has taken money should pay. But not all of Greeks should pay because some people are corrupt!

    And to tell you the truth, I don't believe anything is going to change as long as we are on the verge of poverty and with so high unemployment. Do you think that anyone who is unemployed and without any money for investments can say no if he is offered a job by the government? Especially if he has children? Or if he has health problems and can't find a job? What do you think really?

    Governments take advantage of this situations, unfortunatelly. And moreover, all these imigrands that became legal here by governments, will certainly give a vote to these politicians.. Because they helped them. Things are not so simple.. And neither are everybody in Greece the same.

    February 16, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
  144. evgenia

    to everyone who blames Greek NATION:

    People, please understand it is really different when referring to Greeks(Greek people) or to Greek government. Our government has deceived us in order to sell out our country. We, Greek people, do not believe and do not support the decisions of our government. It is clear we are under dictatorship..A dictatorship of bankers(Papadimos) and corrupted politicians(the rest of the government), who are deprived of any legitimacy. Therefore, please DO not confuse Greeks whith the Greek government when reffering to their decisions and acts. It is NOT fair.
    Indeed we consumed more than our capability to produce, indeed we created an economy which looks like a "giant on thin legs", but it is unfair to humiliate a nation in this way!

    February 16, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
  145. Athinean


    Antoni, are you serious? Have you seen how many German cars rule in Greece? Have you seen how many German food and electric products are imported in Greece? Do you know how much money Greece has spent for the German submarines (btw they have defects) and tanks? All this money go to Germany. And now you are saying that Greece has not spent any cent? What's happening now is that Greeks have minimized theis shopping and as a result of that all the Greek market faces serious problems. the same will happen with the imported products and this will affect other EU countries as well. It's just common sense.
    Do you know that the EU has obliged Greek farmers to have limits about exporting their products and this has been done because even though we have many vegetables and others from our own country we need to import as well. So these farmers with luxury cars do not exist and if they exist they are te minority and now they are not farmers.
    So all money that Germany gives us go back to Germany with interest.
    By the way, you talk like you are totally German, not Greek at all and i am saying this not because you talk against Greece but because i can see no humanity in your words...
    All my best...

    February 16, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
  146. Gustuv

    @ Antonis

    Dear friend. What makes me sick is when expatriates or so called friends of our country, being away from the reality of my country, seem to know things better than us. All you noticed is the farmer's mercedes, when you came from Germany. If he' s been hard worker why shouldn't he buy one, though? Anyway, if he didn't work hard that is not his fault entirely but its is the fault of the goverment and the European Central Bank which was just sending money without checking upon its sharing by the Greek bankers who were spliting millions with goverment officials, between each other.

    And look now what is happening. Suddently, all the present support money and funds to Greece go entirely to the Greek bankers and not a pennie goes to the people. And people of Greece pay only taxes and taxes and Greek Bankers are exempt from them.

    Billions have been expatriated by the Bankers the last three years and now they are whistling like they never knew anything. Do you happen to know where is all this money? In German and Swiss and other European grown countries banks. Would you tell me why the Greek Bankers don't provide any details about it? Why the Germans don't push them in telling them and us, and why are they pushing the Greek people who don't even have a job to feed themselves?

    In year 2000, in banks alone, the income deposits were amounted to about 7-8 trillions. Why in year 2008 exploded to a 32- trillion, according to the swiss central bank figures? Who gained all this money my friend and had the means of depositing it?

    Who paid all this money, my friend? Search for yourself and you will find that the bankers from Europe did all this on purpose. They invested in the Greek Stock Exchange and one day they left with billions living us in great debts. because our politicians were fraud to participate in exchanging people's work contributions in the stock exchange. Why none from the Europeans didn't say a word from it? Because the stole our money that way ! Our swetting and not our mercedeses. But it is all the Greek people's fault. None is done by the Germans and the rest of the Europeans.

    How daft can one be to believe that simple people did all this.

    How many German subsidaries commited bribery in Greece over their marketing to create a monopoly of German products in Greece? They are doing the same in Turkey, now. What the Germans or the European Community did?


    You know why? Because they did a lot worse than we did and it all is under the shade and hasn't come out in the open light.

    Dont' look then to mercedes and a few poor Greek investors whom you don't know exactly what they really have paid in order to fund and maintain their business after such funding. This is a long long story which if I analyse you will never talk about funding and its association with normal Greek businessmen.

    This way you loose the elephant and you find the nail and this is unfortunatelly the truth and nothing but the truth.

    WAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    February 16, 2012 at 5:46 pm |
  147. antonis

    Oh, yes, the poor Greeks were forced by the germans to buy foreign products, they were forced by the European to stop working their fields, they were force to misuse the european financial helps, they were forced to enter the euro with wrong statistics and to lie for years about the real situations of their countries. Greek doctors are forced to take fakelaki, as well as greek drive school teachers and others. We should stop victimize ourselves, we ALL know very well what happened in Greece the last years. BTW den eimai o monos Ellinas pou skeftetai etsi (Apo Ta Nea) :

    Σ' ευχαριστώ, ω Γερμανία. Σ' ευχαριστώ που είσαι τόσο απεχθής. Τόσο υπέροχα ικανή να φταις για όλα.
    Εσύ δεν διέφθειρες το πολιτικό μας σύστημα; Εσύ δεν μόλυνες – ψηφιακώς και υποβρυχίως – τους άσπιλους ευπατρίδες που μας διακονούσαν; Εσύ τους χάλασες, όπως χάλασες κι εμάς, φυτεύοντας Μπέμπες, Καγιέν και Μερσεντές στο φαντασιακό μας.
    Μόνο το ανάθεμα σου πρέπει, Γερμανία. Χωρίς εσένα θα είχαμε καταφέρει να εισπράξουμε κάτι περισσότερο από το ένα τοις εκατό των βεβαιωμένων χρεών προς το Δημόσιο. Χωρίς τη βαριά σκιά σου, θα είχαμε εξυγιάνει το κράτος. Θα είχαμε ξεριζώσει τις ελλειμματικές παραφυάδες του. Θα είχαμε καλύτερα νοσοκομεία. Καλύτερες εφορίες. Καλύτερα πανεπιστήμια.
    Εσύ καθήλωσες την οργιώδη παραγωγή μας. Σακάτεψες τη ρωμαλέα μας ανταγωνιστικότητα. Εσύ καταδικάζεις στην αχρησία τους νόμους που ψηφίζουμε. Καθυστερείς τα δικαστήριά μας.
    Δεν είναι όμως για όλα αυτά που λατρεύω να σε μισώ, Γερμανία. Είναι πρωτίστως γιατί βοηθάς τον κόσμο να 'ναι απλός. Επίπεδος. Ασπρος ή μαύρος. Χρεώνεσαι ό,τι είναι δύσκολο να εξηγηθεί. Κι ό,τι είναι δυσάρεστο να ειπωθεί, το καλουπώνεις.
    Χάρη σε σένα δεν έχουμε πολλά και σύνθετα προβλήματα. Εχουμε ένα πρόβλημα και είσαι εσύ.
    Χάρη σε σένα και το ρυπαρό σου παρελθόν νιώθουμε πάλι ήρωες, πάλι αθώα σφάγια της Ιστορίας.
    Χάρη σε σένα βολευόμαστε στην ευκολία των στερεοτύπων. Στην αγλωσσία των συνθημάτων. Στους θούριους της δεισιδαιμονίας.
    Σ' ευχαριστώ, ω Γερμανία. Μάνα των κακών. Μαμμή της αγανάκτησης. Πηγή της πιο υπνωτικής παραμυθίας.

    February 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm |
  148. Constantinos

    About Greek farmers:

    Agricultural production is at the same level as 1980, that's why we import so many agricultural products.

    Greek farmers pay from little to no taxes at all, another thing that is going to change soon.

    Most farmers drive luxury cars because they can classify them as "professional".

    Most farmers have built luxury houses while the urban population lives in cramped apartments.

    Many farmers cheated to get subsidies they didn't deserve, like getting the cotton they produced wet to weigh more. Everyone in Greece turned a blind eye to this because after all it was EU's money that they were getting.

    Almost every year farmers form roadblocks for many days to protest that they aren't getting enough money from the state and the EU.

    February 16, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
  149. James Williams

    Having read some of the comments it seems that many of the contributors to this discussion who are either Greek or of Greek extraction seem to blame the same groups of people for their country's economic woes. In no particular order these are
    (1) the Greek government
    (2) bankers -in this case an unspecific term but nevertheless implying the existence of some dark conspiratorial cabal of evil-doers
    (3) foreigners and/or foreign governments,
    (4) supranational organisations (EU, IMF, ESF, -and probably the WWF and RSPCA if they could get away with it)
    (5) the capitalist system
    The list probably goes on but my point is that Greeks tacitly colluded with their governments to permit the existence of a set of economic policies that were unsustainable. You can't expect to maintain a large public sector when few taxes are collected. You can't get paid for 14 months work per year. A Balkan farmer producing tomatoes / cheese / olives can't justify running a Mercedes Benz when his farming colleagues in the North bash around in 20 year old Land Rover Defenders.

    February 16, 2012 at 6:44 pm |
  150. Gustuv

    Last comment of the night !

    Can anybody tell me what the Greek journalists did in Greece, all this time, hiding all the scambags for money and nothing but money and what money have they taken from goverment funds for advertisments?

    Look at their luxury mansions at the sea coast of most of the islands and their life style. If you ask them what their fathers job was, they will tell you, that they were postmen. Φτου σας ρε !!!

    And when they were refused a bank loan, just a while ago, we all suddently saw the "finger" in the front page of Spiegel magazine and red articles like the previous one.

    Journalists suck just like our politicians, do. They have flooded us with "true facts". In fact their pockets are flooded, instead.

    Hidden journalists.....Χμ.... You seem to know everything, don't you?

    February 16, 2012 at 6:47 pm |
  151. Constantinos

    If Greek journalists were doing their job we probably wouldn't be in this mess now. But like everyone else they were corrupt and their employer was effectively the government as their paychecks would come mostly from state advertising and shady deals that their bosses were doing with the state.

    February 16, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
  152. James Williams


    February 16, 2012 at 7:12 pm |
  153. George Agios

    @pro fundo:
    Amazing. This country does not know to say “thank you”, behaves like the whole world owes something to it, while at the same time bashes around.
    “Pro Fundo” compares the British with viruses (shame upon you), but he (or she) forgets that the British helped this country expand its territory several times in history. Just a hundred of years ago with British support this country expanded its territory by occupying about 50% of (geographic) Macedonia and during the civil war in 1948, the British saved them by bombing the democratic forces.
    And so the British are guilty, right?

    February 16, 2012 at 7:30 pm |
  154. deborah

    Being lead to believe hta you can buy happiness for years and encouraged to borrow money, buy a house get your self esteem up by getting an expensive car and all the acoutraments that go with a good life. To keep growth growing. But it was a false economy and this is not the fault of the Greek people or Portuguese or Spanish It is the fault of the ?Politicians. And I dont see why the Greek people should pay now. Write off the debt print more money start all over again. And get it right. I mean all that INTEREST that hasn't been paid whose moeny is it anyway? Please tell me.

    February 16, 2012 at 11:12 pm |
  155. deborah

    Most of the people...NO Many of the people of these Mediteranean countries have little opinion about politics. We came to Portugal The Algarve 40 years ago. There were two cars in the village and a donkey tied to a tree. One TV in the corner cafe that virtually the whole village sat to watch on a Sunday afternoon, and of course football matches. No running mains water, It was all rain catching cisterners, if lucky enough to have one. Since their bloodless revolution in the early 70s (One of the first and successful during this latest round). There was no way to borrow money to buy a house, Many people I met had never learned to read or write. Some had never even made it to the beachline just 12 miles away. Many grew some sort of crops and tried to get work and people did go hungry. Then the business of making a business out of our planet stepped in closely following our joining of the EEC. Globalisation, woohoo!..More money to be made than ever. The banks will lend them money mmmmm, And they can buy on credit, No! better still they can have a card to spend money they dont have, and cant really afford to pay back. Thenthey can buy those things they see on of their new TVs. Not only were these nice people of these countries completely ill prepared for this they were actually duped. If they werent duped then it means that the people at the top of political decision makers got it sooooo wrong that it has backfired soooo badly that there is no way that the people of these countries should be expected to spend the next 6, 10 ,12 however many years paying for their elected leaders mistakes. I would get and and revolt too.

    African leaders and Arab leaders for keeping their countries huge natural wealth and recources for the chosen few while oftern their country men live in what we would consider abject misery. Our Governments are doing just the same to use. Except they are getting rich from us not form Natural recources like oil. You may say but Governments dont get rich........Oh perleeez. Its all jobs for the boys, Investment, insider info, The Casino of the stock market. That gamble daily on commodities like oil or orange juice, pork bellies!. That push the price up like on oil, taking it way above the price that it actually costs to produce and be delivered through the chain of naturally occuring middle men. It is our planet's oil. I have no problem with business, profit, negotiating and all the great stuff that goes with success. But there is something sickening about witnessing the wealth trickling up and at the end of the day those uneducated simple country folks cant have all of those luxuries that quickly became necessaties that had been dangled in font of them. Were they duped. Are we all?

    February 16, 2012 at 11:57 pm |
  156. Athinean


    No one says that Greeks were forced to buy something from everyone. The fact that we import so many products for Germany answers the silly question of those who say "Germany gives money to Greece". Tell me now, the fact that we import German products doesn't it mean that Greeks send money to Germany or what??? Common sense that cannot be understood by biased people. And again, what "Ta νεα" write doesn't mean is correct...

    We import goods from abroad not beacause of the level that our farmers is but because of the EU law that puts limits on exports. so this is completely different of what you think. Also, take a walk (not on the wild side) on Greek village and try to see farmers with Mercedes.. if you find someone please take a photo and post it here! The propaganda must have limits.

    @James Williams
    In Britain the salary is up at least twice as the Greek ones. So, we take 14 salaries (but with the cuts and taxes we have lost 2,5 salaries so now we earn 11,5 not even 12) and in Britain you take 24 as ours... and the price are the same as your country... so, i don't want to hear again about 14 salaries... and look, the salaries range now from 500-1000 euros do the conversion in pounds...
    Finally, remember Greeks don't say you owe money to us so give us money,no. The Greeks say that we don't export that much but we contribute to the production of Europe by consuming EU products and by working on EU companies. Greece is only the 2% of the Europe economy so even if we have spent your lovely money then we are not enough to bring disaster in Eurozone. Wake up eventually!

    We don't want to have enemies and blaim other countries. Central bank wants to buy everything from this country for free and use silly excuses like farmers with mercedes, luxury houses for all greeks etc in order to change the global opinion and put everybody against Greece and thus having free the road for buying very cheap the whole country.

    ps: @antonis Why you left Greece adn why you blame it? you are saying that farmers work mercedes, many money comes from another countries to Greek people in order to spend and buy luxury houses etc this sounds like materialistic paradies, so why you left this country or blame it??? tompola eh?

    February 16, 2012 at 11:58 pm |
  157. Leo

    Greece shouldn't be a member of the eurozone, most of the Europeans hope they will be thrown out as soon as possilbe.

    February 17, 2012 at 12:01 am |
  158. Athinean

    Have in mind that if Greeks leave eurozone then other countries will follow and the european union will remain european oligarchy. If that is the case then why we started eurozone?
    In Greece there aqre people starving to death and the solution is to throw Greece from eurozone? maybe it is finally good for Greeks but it's not the issue the issue is that people don't care about other peoples but when you come to the situation we are then you will understand. Now you understand only numbers...

    February 17, 2012 at 12:10 am |
  159. Leo

    Why should Germany spend Billions for people who hate them and don't respect them? Every taxpayer in Germany already paid 5000 euros for people who spit on them and treat them as nazis. Shame on Greece !

    February 17, 2012 at 12:42 am |
  160. Chris

    antonis is a German in foustanella!!

    The EU suited the Germans fully. They become less expensive in the EU as everyone is using one currency. They ensured that the industries and farmers were limited in exporting the southern products whilst maximising their exports into these countries.

    Remember to destroy a country your corrupt from within. And this is what was done.

    And Leo WHY? re the Germans spending YOUR money in countries like Greece? Becuae whilst they 'give' money, they get it back in full BUT the debt stays on Greece's books. Nice trick but the world has woken up to the Krauts.

    February 17, 2012 at 2:02 am |
  161. Chris

    antonis, guess what happend to the last German collaborators?

    February 17, 2012 at 2:04 am |
  162. rose macaskie.

    Quest, you were speaking half an hour ago. thursday four somethign am, in spain, to a man from Luxemborg who said that they, in Lulxembourg, wanted to make sure Greece was serious, We know, you know and I know, you once said that europe had been profitable for Germany, that in recent years people, some thirty years ago, Lewis Ranier, Larry Fink and David Maxwell, had found ways of making the buying and selling of debt, which is to say IOUs, very profitable, so much so that the demand was incredible and so where the profits and so the demand for more IOUs which is to say to put more people into debt and the desire to make money by providing IOUs to those who wanted to buy them. THtey wanted to buy them so much that it lead financiers to sell their souls to get more debt, be it sound debt or debt the debtor could never hope to pay back but that they could get the ratings agencies to back as if it were sound debt and so sell at a good price, which is to say debt that the debtors could not hope to pay back without a stroke of luck, like winning the lottery, was somethign financiers wanted people to take out. The financiers wanted more debt and found in greece people willling to be crazy and take out more than they could afford, so they let greece get so deep into a debt that though it broke greece, debt that they could make a profit on, that is french and german financiers could, if i remember right they were the people who hold most of greek debt and so are the ones in who played Greece for whatever they could persuade greece to be crazy enough to promise and then, when their game played out in the only way such a game can play out, when it landed everyone in the soup, cleverly and devilishly, turned round and blamed the Greeks, the losers on the deal for a problem they had caused..
    Who expects each country to be real about how much they can afford to borrow, there are a lot of crazy countries out there, we expect the banks to be level headed and say no and these banks were anything but level headed but they are very able when the time comes to pointing at the Greeks and saying that what they formented was all greek fault. It was France and Germany who made money out of the debt but it is greece and not just greece but her people, not the ones who took out the debt, the banks and the governmmmment but her people, the poor ones, who are asked to suffer from the waste the bonds bubble has made in everyones lives, and you are a bad journalist and are reporting so as to be able to oipen that board room door, and there are a lot of people like you who dont care about the greeks and their ilke, they only care about their pension fund or their charitable fund and they want the greek people to pay for what they caused they who once profited from a deal want the greeks who never profited from it to pay for it. You dont talk of this because you so like getting into the board rooom you are reporting for hte good of the rich on the board not for the good of the people. rose macaskie madrid.

    February 17, 2012 at 4:06 am |
  163. Gustuv

    L E O nides

    An ancient name connected to human solidarity. A heroo who led 299 Spartans to pantheon and the total respect and tribune paid by millions of people for all the centuries which are gone or to come, around the globe.

    A name connected to history.

    Very few people should wear this name !

    February 17, 2012 at 8:25 am |
  164. Gustuv

    @ LEO

    Why do you see only hatriot feelings by the Greeks. Has any Greek told you that he or she hates you?

    February 17, 2012 at 8:27 am |
  165. Gustuv

    @ LEO

    We do not hate you.

    But we want back all the money you stole from us as you are not capable of returning back to us 800,000 lives you took away in the WW II in crematoriums and by killing them in lots unarmed and in ages from 1 to 85+ years old, in hudrends.

    February 17, 2012 at 8:27 am |
  166. Constantinos

    OH PLEASE! I WASN'T BORN YESTERDAY! You can't blame the EU for us importing most of our agricultural goods. There are production limits on certain goods so that their prices won't crash because of excessive supply.
    Most goods have no limits and we either don't produce enough of them or producers prefer to export them because they can get a better price abroad.

    As for what you describe as "propaganda":
    Did you know that the city of Larissa is the Cayenne capital of Europe? Yes you don't see many Mercedes in villages... that's because most prefer to drive SUV's!
    And another thing. I have a lot of friends from Thessaly, and they tell me stories about the hard work of farmers in the coffee shops drinking tsipouro till they get wasted!

    When you finish school you will probably have a better picture of Greece than you have now.

    February 17, 2012 at 8:27 am |
  167. Gustuv

    @ LEO

    We don't hate you. We just want you to pay us back for:

    - All the money you stole from us via bank tricks to us through the replenishing of our debts
    - All the money you stole from us with stock exchange tricks to us back in 1990's, through our stock exchange
    - All the money you stole from us supplying our military dynosaurous, cultivating hatriot between us and the Turkeys, being friends with them at the same time, strangely enough, and after giving amnesty to all of their past and current atrocities by even wanting to enter them in within the European Community, deleting their criminal acts like you did yours, in order not to be alone in this respect, pretending now you are civilised to the rest of the world by even sending peace commissioners to Libya and other Arab State preserving the human rights
    - All the money you stole from us via large projects, in Greece, all via your state companies, commiting bribery after bribery
    - All the money and gold you stole from us from our reserves in the WW II
    - All the money we spend to refurbish our infastructure after WWII
    - All the ancient monuments you stole from us, which you proudly keep in your museums, to remind your barbarism to the world

    February 17, 2012 at 8:28 am |
  168. Gustuv

    @ LEO

    After you' ve done all this we will accept your sayings about your humanitarean sensitivity and solidarity of yours and our incompetence, which should not actually be addressed to Greek people alone but to our corrupt political parties instead, political parties which were cultivated by your country interests all alone, not being different from your corrupt political parties.

    February 17, 2012 at 8:29 am |
  169. Gustuv


    You know what. I found a nme that suits most the Germans. "Attila".

    February 17, 2012 at 8:35 am |
  170. Gustuv

    Wonder, why?

    The Germans don't say a word about Italy. They have a deficit of 2-trillions. Difficult to disapprove their colaboration acts with Benito Mussolini...

    February 17, 2012 at 8:42 am |
  171. Gustuv

    Interesting to know which masacres the Germans condemn through their parliament other than theirs....

    February 17, 2012 at 8:44 am |
  172. Gustuv

    Funny to see Merkel's belief she is pretending to be the leader of all Europeans....It reminds me of a puppet show...

    February 17, 2012 at 8:48 am |
  173. Gustuv

    We know that the majority of Germans are good people, with high ideals. We cannot put all people in the same sack !

    February 17, 2012 at 8:55 am |
  174. Gustuv

    @ LEO

    Still waiting your reply to what you are paying for us instead of what you should pay to us...

    February 17, 2012 at 9:03 am |
  175. Athinean


    I have finished school since almost 20 years and I have managed to be open minded. By your thoughts I can see that you are in school struggling to finish it... Keep on studying.

    Take now the products that they have put limits:
    Milk, cheese, tomatoes, potatoes, vegetables, cotton etc.. you want some more?

    Lariissa is what???? Cayenne capital of Europe? Is this propaganda or not??? When you grow up and you make your own money finally, go for a trip to Larissa and check how many porsche cars rule there...nothing you will find.
    And at the end of the day if you think that farmers drive mercedes and cayenne have in mind that both are German so again you come to my words, Greeks send money to Germany.
    And if your friends from thessaly telling you these stories that means that being a farmer is better than every other profession, so my question is...why aren't they farmers? Tell me a person who doesn't like not to work, drinking and riving Cayenne etc? find me one person? so why aren't they farmers? You see propaganda again...

    ps: you probably live abroad and you are lucky that you are in a school with books (beacuse i am completely sure that you haven't finished it yet whereas i have finished my Master's ages now..) where the bad Greek kids don't have this opportunity to own books in theri school because their parents were living in luxury houses and driving porsche.. I feel sorry for your brain...

    February 17, 2012 at 9:21 am |
  176. Gustuv

    Any ideas why the majority of the Greek politicians owe mercedes cars? Ha..ha...ha...!!!!

    February 17, 2012 at 9:41 am |
  177. vasiliki M

    Το να είσαι άδικος δεν έχει να κάνει με την καταγωγή σου, ούτε με την ηλικία σου, ούτε καν με τις θρησκευτικές απόψεις σου, έχει να κάνει μόνο με την παιδεία σου, με τον προβληματικό χαρακτήρα σου, την έλλειψη αυτοσεβασμού και απουσία στην καλύτερη περίπτωση κριτικής ικανότητας.
    Σε λυπάμαι πραγματικά και λυπάμαι τον καθένα που σκέφτεται έτσι γιατί είναι καταδικασμένος στην μιζέρια του και την κακία του που δεν οφελεί κανένα. Σε λυπάμαι που δεν σκέφτεσαι καν ανθρώπινα, και εκφράζεις συναισθήματα καταπιεζμένα, συνεπώς κομπλεξικά.
    The rights violation make people to be agree, to have wrong behaviour and create skirmishes. We don't want a separation, we want to have a solution that allows to keep our dignity and freewill. We are different from the past generation, we want to change this situation, we want opportunities to live well in Greece and to be equal in this Union. We want to give and to be given. But in these terms is not healthy. And we didn't ask for help from INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND . Our beloved politicians did...We prefer the help of our "family" as families use to do. We are not enemies, so don't act like we are. We are just citizens with same problems.

    February 17, 2012 at 9:59 am |
  178. Gustuv

    I think I know why the Greek politicians buy mercedes cars, after all.

    They don't want flashie red ferraris in order to avoid the critisism and condemn of the population. Plus, they are bad drivers all together.

    They want mercedes cars, which represent the hard working population...and those who suffer from spending all this money for the Greeks who don't have any jobs and nothing to eat...

    Does anyone know why they buy them destruction proof though?

    I suggest they take a walk rather using destruction proof cars. Whom of them will take such risk to confront the greek population, though?

    NONEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    February 17, 2012 at 10:22 am |
  179. Gustuv

    OK ! I am moderating my comment.

    Why parliament officials around the globe show so much preference in mercedes cars?

    Do they represent the hard working popoulation?

    February 17, 2012 at 10:31 am |
  180. Athinean

    My last words:

    As a citizen of this world I have visited America, I have enjoyed driving their big cars, eating their enormous luches and swimming in their deep oceans. I really love this country.
    Also, I have visited many countris in Europe and for some of them I really enjoyed their food, their sightseeing their culture and everything. I have not any problem with anyone.
    All this time in Greece I was working, I was saving money to go to trip and live new experiences and why not be part of this economy by spending my money to other countries's markets. The last is absolutely healthy.
    All this time I was working, I was paying my taxes and I was living according to my country and EU law.
    Suddenly, they anounced that Greece is going to bankrupt. Where did I go wrong????
    And now I can hear from other people from other countries (not the majority though, I have to be right) that this is the fault of the Greek farmer and Greek people and they need to be thrown out and left alone to starve. Is this reasonable thought?
    Constantinos and antonis, I think that you got the message and think twice. We are nto enemies and we have not stolen your money.
    I wish all the best to all of you!

    February 17, 2012 at 10:48 am |
  181. Gustuv

    @ the man who was in a hurry to get to his job yesterday...

    Are you still working, from yesterday? I' d believe you if you'd tell me what kind of beer you were drinking yesterday, at the pub. I hope you were not driving a merc...car after that...though ! And if I am a tease, I apologise to you, but don't tell me that you' ve never dreamt of driving one after all having a beautiful company with you. Oh! we all are hard workers in our mind aren't we, my friend?...

    February 17, 2012 at 10:51 am |
  182. Gustuv

    Always look at the bright side of life... ta da, ta da ta da ta da...

    Funny when people loose they marbles and don't fall in love with life, offering love to those who suffer from the luck of it.

    Have a nice weekend my friends, Germans and Turks, Polish and Jews, Iranian and Afgans, Chinese and Koreans, any popuplation on earth !

    I love you all.

    Thank you "GOD" for your love !

    February 17, 2012 at 11:05 am |
  183. ViVi

    Brothers and Sisters, make love not war... I enjoy all the comments in this post. Please see the forest, and not one tree. Now is Greece tomorrow it wll be YOU.! Money is the fault for this situation. So the point is that we have been victims, we trust them and we give them power, so now could kick our a**es! I dont have money, but i stil have my legs my arms, my mind. And also ρε παιδια μην τους βρίζετε, μας προκαλουν επιτηδες, λόγω αγνοιας η λογω κακιας. Θα μας πουν και με το δικιο τους ρατσιστες η φασιστες η κακους κτλ. Καλως η κακως ειναι ετσι η φαρα μας που θελουμε να είμαστε οι καλύτεροι, Αποδείξτε το με τα λόγια εδώ, και με τις πράξεις σας στην Ελλάδα, μην τους βρίζετε, και ναζι να είναι δεν προκειται να το καταλαβουν ετσι, πρεπει να εχουμε επιχειρηματα. oh and i would like to answer to "An American"....Oh My God, are you talking serious??? I will sell you something, please come here and i will show you my property....

    February 17, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
  184. Constantinos


    Ok, if I have to reveal my age then here it is: I am 41 and I have lived virtually all my life in Athens. Maybe that's why all this economic mess hasn't come as a surprise to me.
    All my life I have seen the stupid things this people (we) have done. Never been quite satisfied with what they had, always wanting to have "european wages" but not a european way of life, after all we don't want to be like them – all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

    Always complaining that the state doesn't do enough for us but never caring to think about what we can do to make things better ourselves. Destroying the environment, burning our forests to build summer homes and blaming foreign agents for this. Our cities are concrete monstrosities that make life in them a living hell.
    Even the aegean islands are starting to look like miniature versions of Athens. The country is filled with illegal landfills and no one cares!
    People are raising their children to believe that most things in life are guaranteed either by the state or by God. Maybe that's why they get so disappointed when they see how real life is. Everyone talks about rights and no one about responsibilities.

    Is all this the fault of the Germans, Dutch, Americans, EU, the capitalist system, airborne agents, etc.. ?

    I with my humble brain have come to the conclusion that in order to improve as a person I have to find out first what my flaws are. I take no pleasure at pointing out the failings of my people because after all they are my failings too.

    If you all think that you are not responsible in any way for this mess then the only thing that I can say to you is that you deserve each other.

    February 17, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
  185. Athinean


    So you say that Greeks haven't been working that much. Probably you are talking about public sector and about some work posts there. In private sector, if you have ever worked there, the things are not like this. There you work for many hours and it is well known that you will never be paid for extra time etc. Is this the case or not? This has started many many years ago. do you agree? Majority of people work in private sector. Also, have in mind that many people in Greece work for multinational companies and do exactly the same job as their colleagues in other countries and they are paid for the half salary. Am I wrong?????

    About houses on the beach etc. you know that in big areas such as in Peloponissos, islands etc foreign people have built their own summer homes. Am I wrong again????

    And yes, this should be the case. You should have a state that work for its citizens and not for the markets. Is that something extreme? Now we are talking there are many Greek people standing on the queues for getting food, so you suggest that state should not do that.

    And please open your mind and your eyes as well to see what most people are writing here. We don't blaim ANYONE. Forget about it. Some other people like German and stuff in this post blaim Greeks. As I stated before they are victims of propaganda. we don't say that the German citizen etc is his fault. Read carefully what we are writing.

    Finally, as for the last that you say about improve yourself, please do this and soon you will have a clear thought and find your humanity back.

    ps: responsible are not Greek citizens as they are not the German, Dutch, Americans etc. this is what we are trying to say in this post...

    February 17, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
  186. Athinean


    something last, please don't expect any reply from me. I am not doing this because I don't have respect for you but because I got tired proving that I am not an elephant..

    Best Regards

    ps: I love Europe citizens but not their leaders

    February 17, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
  187. Lefteris

    Leo mentioned that every taxpayer in Germany has already paid 5000 euros for Greece. This is misleading information presented by the media. The truth is that all Eurozone countries have put collateral so that EFSF can borrow money from the markets and then give loans to Greece with slightly higher interest. This mean that eventually Eurozone countries will make profit out of Greece.
    I should also point out that EFSF bunds will not go through a haircut.
    I am not critisizing this, as I am not ungreatful. I just wanted to clear this.

    February 17, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
  188. Constantinos


    I only have one thing to say to you. Stop trying to find Utopia. It doesn't exist. Try to live on earth instead.

    February 17, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
  189. Marcus

    Let's all put patriotism, national pride, historic injustice, racism and xenophobia aside for 1 minute and look at who actually got it wrong. and allocate a hypothetical "blame" factor..

    Greek politicians and economists ( – lying and misleading the world when entering EU) 25%
    EU politicians and economists (- being naiive / not check ing the figures so allowing Greece in) 25%
    Post EU entry, Greek government (-being weak on enforcing tax payments & spending what it knew it didn't have) 20%
    World banks (- poor lending criteria, knew the risk, lending beyond customers' means) 15%
    Wealthy Greeks (middle class and above , greedy and forgetting the price of society) 15%

    So there you have it, everyone one at fault so everyone needs to fix it.

    Though quite why the original Greek politicians and economists who cheated and lied to the EU (and their own people) and so got Greece into the EU in the first place have escaped justice baffles me..........

    February 18, 2012 at 6:42 am |
  190. Eleni

    Mr geroussis's reply says it all. The problem of GReece is its corrupted politicians. These were the ones who did not even demand any compensation from GErmany after the loss of second world war. Contrary to France ... (and Greece contributed with blood to this war not tiny resistance) And these politicians give voice to ignorant persons such as mr grapperhaus.

    February 18, 2012 at 7:10 pm |
  191. Mr. Skeptic

    Richard Quest is unqualified to be a journalist and is unqualified to discuss economics and financial topics. His sole qualification is that he has a British accent and works for CNN Money a site that is clueless. Get your financial news from some other source.

    February 20, 2012 at 10:12 pm |
  192. Anonymous

    Did you hear the latest news? OBAMA is a Muslim AND he even FAVORS them, according to Billy Graham Jr and all the right wing nuts in Good 'ol US of A!

    From the times of Ottoman empire to the rise of the "invented people" and the Nazi movement, religion was ALWAYS used to veil the truth...what is the truth? EVIL always cloak themselves behind religion to justify their destructive and menacing acts!
    tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...

    February 22, 2012 at 12:39 am |
  193. GG

    Germany is NOT giving Greeks anything. They are lending Greece money of which they are making a profit. They are NOT allowing Greeks to cut military spending as the majority of their arms are from Germany. Germans are NOT paying for all WWII damages that killed 558 000 Greeks. They burnt 90 towns entirely. They seriously wounded nearly 1 million citizens and left 1.3 million jobless. When they packed up and left, they destroyed most of the infrastructure, including ALL bridges. The Germans took ALL Greek gold reserves. If that were not enough, Greece loaned money to Germany for their rebuilding of which they still have not payed. The majority of today's economic scandals involve German companies. At least the Germans should have shown a lot more respect to Greece, its history and its people. Maybe this is their revenge for the fact that Hitler's forces were slowed down and thus late to attack Russia resulting in losing the war. If that is the case, does this mean that there are still people in Germany holding key positions with friendly thoughts towards Nazism?

    February 22, 2012 at 5:38 am |
  194. GK

    history repeats itself! watch out, because the greeks are starting to wake up and realize their government is corrupt. they are ready for a revolution and big things will come for the greeks! zhto h ellada!

    shame on all of you people who try to embarrass the greeks. it just goes to show that all of you take advantage of all the things that originated from greece. other countries need to relax because no country would be where they are today without the GREEKS!

    February 23, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
  195. Anonymous

    I FOUND THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION TODAY...I FINALLY FIGURED OUT WHY I AM NOT ABLE TO GET JUSTICE against Facebook and Zuckerberg's "friends"...THE ANSWER WAS THERE ALL ALONG and yet I could not see...LOOK AT THE TOP 17 financial leaders who are Jews on Wikipedia list...NEARLY ALL OF THEM played a role in world financial crisis! THE ZIONISTS OF ISRAEL are out to destroy the world AND THEY HAVE AND HAD the means to block my personal quest for justice – OMG! NOW I SEE...

    February 26, 2012 at 3:09 am |
  196. raul

    26 february 2012

    this is what they say:

    february 15th, 2012
    02:32 am gmt
    quest: greece 2012 equals versailles 1919?
    posted by: cnn anchor and correspondent, richard quest
    london (cnn) – "it is official, the greek economy has gone into meltdown"

    all i can say is:

    it is my humble intentions to discuss, explain, how history shaped, change our
    lives with regards to the u.s.(the greatest capitalist of the whole world) economy.
    i wanted to write a book. looking for someone to realize my own book.

    "what is in-store for us after the month of september,
    year 2008"

    there are seven things i would like to stress in my book.

    firstly, since when and how did the american economy start to
    decline, to spoil?
    how did the u.s. government had gone wrong in handling the
    problems of lehman brother's and other big companies?
    what is the most possible (logical) solutions to counter this
    mammoth crisis?
    why did i say that time is truly very crucial, essential to
    counter this huge crisis?
    what are the chances of not going back again to the 1930's
    "great depression"?
    how am i going to explain in pure and simple language that what
    the markets used to portray are all artificial and that
    "no matter how", "no matter what", america will have to
    fall first and never the other way around
    (yes, and not the other way around).
    and finally when shall we are going to see the most possible
    time, year or years the economy would improve, would
    pick-up, and recover from this big crisis.

    take good care and God bless . . . . . . . raul

    pa.joey@yahoo.com my facebook account, thanks'

    February 26, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
  197. nickro

    why you ppl argue ? better go on http://lolmode.com then be trollin

    March 8, 2012 at 6:48 pm |
  198. Dennis

    all treaties done in Versailles were illegal, especially the treaty of Trianon. You never are supposed to hurt the people in war but punish the leadership and government officials in such a treaty. Regards to whats happening to Greece cannot compare to anyone of those treaties that were done in Versailles, but we can look and see that the ECB and the IMF are about as Evil as those that drew up them treaties.... Down with the ECB, Down with the EMF, Down with the EU.... melting pot societies never work, just look at the USA sink down the drain and you can thank all those banks who never get any blame but gain in everyway.

    March 13, 2012 at 12:44 am |
  199. JB

    Everybody, calm down! Greece will get through this crisis. They've dug their own hole but will come out of it better-with lessons learned! Greeks are not Germans but they can use some German discipline to fight the corruption that's been responsible for much of the current chaos.

    March 20, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
  200. ioanna


    April 5, 2012 at 10:55 pm |
  201. alex apostolopoulos

    I`m greek to , I use to say years ago that the way the economy is run in greece is a jock and a clown could have done much better , I was ridiculed time and time again , the pension system is a scam ,
    the only rael greek you will ever find is the one`s that migrated to the USA,Canada, Australia etc...in 1950

    most greek in Greece wanted to live like (god`s) most had government job`s and other job`s the second job was cash no tax , the government job was to make sure to get a pension at 56 !!!! , if not at 54 !!!

    try to open a business in greece the red tap is just RIDICULERS , try to look at the housing registration just a jock

    I`m greek and to the GREEKS I say KALA NA PATHETE (you deserve what you get ) that is the result of the fakelakia to get things done , nothing could get done is you do not pay under the table so much for the idea of FREE greeks ,

    I`m greek and to the GREEKS I say KALA NA PATHETE

    it cost 4 time more then any other Olympic game yes greek`s can build but for the same price other can do 4 times more ,

    opa opa la la la , no sympathy . let them burn it smell like a souvlaky

    April 8, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
  202. ioanna

    λοιπον alex apostolopoulos λυπαμαι γιατι σαν και εσενα θα ειναι παρα πολλοι!εγω που ειμαι 24 ετων και η γενια μου δεν μας αξιζει κατι καλυτερο?δεν προλαβαμε να τα "φαμε!".στο μονο που συμφωνουμε ειναι οτι η κυβερνηση ειναι αχρηστη.χρονια τωρα.αλλα οι μισοι φυγατε εξω και τωρα μας βριζετε και οι αλλοι μισοι συνεχιζουν το παρε δωσε οπως μαθανε.το ερωτημα ειναι κοιτας τον εαυτο σου και φευγεις εξω η μενεις και υποφερεις για κατι που λεγεται εθνος?και λυπαμαι γιατι την απαντηση οι μισοι ελληνες την ξερουν!υπαρχουν τοσες αποψεις και κινδυνοι για την χωρα μας που τελικα την βλεπω καμμενη γη!alex apostolopoulos θες να αλλαξουμε θεσεις?για να νιωσεις το συναισθημα...(με η χωρις σουβλακι)

    April 19, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
  203. Optima Moving

    Nice ! :P

    April 26, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
  204. Optima Moving


    April 26, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
  205. Dimitris

    'I don't think I can push the analogy much further though. Greece hasn't had territorial appropriations or restrictions on its military.'

    You are wrong here in sort of the way Mr. Quest, but your mesage you want to pass through the article is correct.

    The budget situation has forced Greece to stop spending in its military, but the main rival Turkey has not. So in sort of a way it is has forced restrictions in its military. And by the way Turkey has never stopped it's territorial claim. And also you forgot to mention that the greek Nazi party will get 6% of the votes and will be in parliament.

    April 28, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
  206. George

    How nice to see people having fights about what nations is working harder, what nation is better, what nation is fatter, smarter etc. My god a slow down in world economy and everything goes back to where it was a hundred years ago!! My god!! get over it people!

    April 29, 2012 at 10:51 am |
  207. Schnitzle

    GG you said it the b est.

    Funny the Germans still want to sell Greece it's military bull s**t. If they stop this, it might affect them.

    A German never changes in mhy humble opinion. Simple. And I don't even live in the Greece and I know this.

    April 30, 2012 at 12:39 pm |
  208. Debt is Fake

    The Debt is fake everyone. The last bailout didn't even go to the Greek people but back to the bankers. Same with the prior bailout. Yet the whole DEBT is left on the Greek poeple to pay.

    The expenses were fraudulent and those military expesnes where for items that were worthless.

    The aim was to indebt Greece, Greece owes nothing for this scam.

    The Germans have lost their money because the stupid people of that country allowed their bankers to steal it. And the bankers, smartly, blamed the Southern states. And the Germans bought it.

    You have to remember we are talking about a race that in the past had no care in the world when it killed millions and millions of people. INNOCENT people.

    Do you think 'these' people will care about Greece?

    April 30, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
  209. Take over

    This is nothing but a takeover. A takeover of countries. The plan it

    Lets face it , bankers where either incompetent(yeah, they didn't learn from Equador, Mexico, Argentina, Africa) to lend 'too much' or they decided by design to implode from within by encouraging their Politicians to spend to the max and then 'force' theem to take up loans which would indebt the people for generations. An old but good tactic.

    The countries now struggling were doing fine before joining the EU. They had come out of the war and recovering quite well, if not a little haphazard. Now it's a depression.

    Yet for some strange reason the only thing the GERMANS want to do is force these countries to stay in the EU claiming they are owed. yet all the money these countries spent went to the Dutch, Belgium and Germany. The other countries in the know(Denmark, Sweden the UK) didn't drop their currencies. Why? Yet Greece, Spain, Italy etc are not allowed to revert back to their currencies AND use the Euro like others. A task that would save theses countries.

    Because they want these countries to fall and be enslaved. That's why.

    I cannot see why the drachma cannot be introduced and worked along side the Euro just like other countries have. Can you?

    As for the debt? Well as others pointed out I don't see why the Greek people should have the Debt liability shoved on their books when the money went to the banks and not the people. Others got the cash yet the Greek people should pay? Is this fair.

    As for the Germa people, they should be asking their Governments not to bailout here and their and stop balming the Spanish and Greeks and whoever else for their bankers and Governments mess(or planned attack).

    History will show the German people will be blamed again just like the killing of the Jewish innocents.

    May 1, 2012 at 7:55 am |
  210. gorankovachev

    Finally, the World will see who are we Macedonians dealing with last 20 years and so...It is always someone else's fault, never Greek's. They blame everyone: Germans for the debt, Americans for the capitalism, Turks for Cyprus, Macedonians for the name and Macedonian minority in Greece, Albanians and other immigrants for the crime and unemployment, Vatican and Italy for Catholicism, WTO, World bank, IMF, NATO, everyone...Poor Greeks.

    May 1, 2012 at 8:12 pm |
  211. Irukandji

    Haha and as the cherry on a cake the Slavs that wanna be called Macedonians are here to show the truth...Pathetic
    I tell you one. Tell me what ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ(thats Alexander in ALL ancient texts) means in your Slavic language and then we see.
    You were right about one thing, that you try to deal and persuade us and the world that you are Macedonians for the last 20 years while the Macedonian history in Greece is at least 3000 years old.

    May 2, 2012 at 1:16 am |
  212. Take over

    The sad thing is that the Slavic Macedonians are attempting to change history without really looking at their language and how it was created. They don't even want to listen to the facts. And that is quite sad.

    The Byzantium Monks tried to 'create' a Slavic alphabet in the 9th century. The Ancient Macedonian language was actually Koine Greek. It died out in 300AD. The bible was written in Koine Greek.It is similar but different to modern Greek. But Hellenic in form and can be understood by Greeks today.

    The first Macedonian 'Slavic' written alphabet was developed by linguists after World War Two. This is a fact and I call up Slavic Macedonians on this all the time and they can't argue it. That doesn't mean I don't consider them Macedonian esp if they were born in the area and have been in the area for over a century. I just get annoyed how they adopt say Alexander the Great as one of their own only and are attempting to spread a myth that somehow he spoke Slavic Macedonian. And that the Greek side is being erased.

    And that is just wrong. They forget his mother was from Epirus also and that Koine Greek was also the written language there.

    I look at anyone born in the region as Macedonian(Greek or non Greek). I never view anyone as a nothing. In fact,the Romanitoe Jews in the area for instance(there over 2300 years) adopted Greek names and considered themselves Hellenic in nature(the word Greek wasn't used). They spoke Greek and had Greek names compared to the Serphadic Jews that came in the region in 14th Century(Spanish names). So that is another point that Hellenisim was the predominate culture.

    May 2, 2012 at 2:25 am |
  213. gorankovachev

    Of course @Irukandji and @Take over, "the Greek truth is always the true truth" just like the "true" GDP and national debt data you submitted to European Commission, IMF and World Bank. You blame Germans!? Wasn't the Bavarian prince Otto who became your first king in 1821, when term "Greece" was first introduced? Keep living in the past my friends, the future is not so bright for you! Someone has to pay back. Guess who?

    May 2, 2012 at 7:14 pm |
  214. Take over

    Goran you forget to answer the questions I have raised. It is typical of your ilk to do this:

    What Gods did the Ancient Macedonians believe in?

    What language did Alexander the Great spread when conquering nation upon nation?

    When was the first recorded Macedonian language you use first published or found in written form?

    Why have no ancient artifacts been discovered in Slavic Macedonian language you currently use?

    The 1912 census on Thesolonika. 60+ thousand Jews, 45+ thousand Muslims, 40+ thousand Greeks and 10+ thousand 'others'. Where are the Slavs in this calculation? The 10?

    And talking about land grbas, the country thatis now called FROM, who did you take that off?

    I don't agree with anyone losing their land(and I feel when the region was split in three unfortunate people, Jewish persons and Slavic people) lost land unnecessarily in some cases. I also agree that the Regions of Epirus and Macedonia were once Kingdoms of their own. But they were Hellenic in nature and language. Alexander the Great spread Hellenisism not Slavisim.

    The problem with the FROM people is that they are trying to tie their heritage and mainly a language that was created after the second world war to Alexander the Great which is incorrect. Your relatives may have been living in this area(mine were too) but they did not speak the language you use today. That's my point. The current Slavic Macedonian language did not exist in Ancient Macedonia.

    All I see are personal attacks and deflection from the real issues because you have no answers.

    May 2, 2012 at 10:44 pm |
  215. gorankovachev

    @Take over, of course I can give you answers to all of your questions but again, THE HISTORY IS NOT A TOPIC HERE!

    I have stated that all of the World now finally knows that GREECE HAD LIED ABOUT ITS ECONOMIC PERFORMANCES in order to gain EU aid as it always did through the years...

    Tax eviction as a national sport, pensions to death people, benefits and subsidies to ineffective farmers, bus drivers "respecting" driving schedules, hair dressers for doing "hazardous" job with their scissors, multiple invoices, money laundering and God knows what else...

    Everyone finally knows that Greeks lied about economics as they always do about history and politics. Every time someone says "YOU NEED TO PAY YOUR DEBTS!" you start talking about ancient history.

    The real issue here my friend is that you should finally START WORKING AND PAY BACK YOUR DEBTS and not trying to find enemies everywhere...

    As a Macedonian and your closest neighbor I REALLY WANT YOU TO SUCCEED IT because everyone is rich as rich as his neighbors are!

    May 3, 2012 at 7:23 pm |
  216. Take over

    No Goran, you brought up the History and implied that the Greeks or Hellenic people have stolen something from the Slavic race. Land was taken and I think that is wrong. But if you look at the current Republic of Macedonia land was taken from others. Look at Israel? Look at Cyprus? Look at Lebanon? Who suffers?

    I blame Governments for allowing this. The people at the ground level just cop it all.

    The only thing I agree with with you is anyone born in the Macedonian region I consider Macedonian, regardless of the language they speak. I have always felt that.

    All the countries in the EU are in Debt. Your country is not part of the EU fully as yet and when it is, it will be asked to 'contribute' to the national fund which will increase your debt as well as Albanias debt. Both countries have a debt you know that? All countries do at present. The land given to you will eventually be part of the EU and will be lost again. Look at what happened to Greece and don't join!!

    As for the tax evation part, I find that laughable because all countries have 'cash' and when you have 'cash' tax evasion is a natural consequence of that. Are you implying that your country does not have tax cheats? Tell me a country that does not? lol

    In fact the biggest tax dodgers are the Germans!!!:

    As for the debt, one has to define the definition of debt and what it is. The bailouts recently(as well as America) have gone back to bankers yet the liability has remained with Greece. Anyone with a finance degree will tell you this is creative accounting at its best and not should not be regarded as a liability to pay back. It's like giving you money with one hand, giving it back immediately to the bank BUT being told you still owe it.

    Its a scam the IMF have done on Argentina, Mexico, Brazil etc. And they will do it to the new EU members because they want to make sure all the countries lose their sovereignty.

    Any legitimate debt should be paid back but the people can't get an honest Politician in there to audit the books and work out what is legit and what is not.

    I wish there was not a civil war in the Macedonian region. I wish 60, 000 plus Greek Jews were not killed. I wish that people were not thrown over borders and told they were no longer Macedonians.

    But it was all planned years ago. Greece will not exists nor will Italy etc. Albania and Macedonia will lose their country as well. Do you really think they will leave you alone? Are they not pushing to get the Republic of Macedonia in the EU? Why?

    May 4, 2012 at 2:05 am |
  217. Take over

    What I failed to mention is that the plan seems to me that the EU want to absorb the bigger countries first. The smaller ones are being left alone for now becasue once the big onesare taken over(by debt) then taking over countries like Macedonia, Bosnia , Albania etc are too easy. they will just walk in and there will be no resistance.

    So I suggest you look long term at the plan just like Alexander the Great would have. That's the plan here with the EU. It's purpose is to create one state.An EU state.

    Your Republic will be short lived just like Cyprus was between 1960-1974. Just watch out.

    May 4, 2012 at 2:14 am |
  218. gorankovachev

    Finally agreed on most of the things @Take over! I gain feelings of evroscepticism the way EU is functioning now. It seems that EU-state is a deathborn?!

    Except for the last sentence, you can't be more wrong. Macedonia will exist till the end of time!!!

    May 4, 2012 at 11:57 am |
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  220. Lucy

    Well I'm an American and am planning a vacation to Greece later this summer. Hopefully that will help out a few people there by my visit. I'm looking forward to seeing all the historical sites and beautiful islands. I think in the west we should remember that a lot of our democratic principles come from Greece. I'd tend to blame some greedy government officials in the Greek government for the issues. Most of the population are the victims of this. I personally think Greece might be better off just leaving the euro zone completely. With their own currency, they could make a quicker comeback!

    May 9, 2012 at 7:52 pm |
  221. dave

    Please recall that Greece was kicked out of the Latin Monetary Union in 1910 for debasing the currency. Some things never change.

    May 17, 2012 at 12:25 am |
  222. mschipperheyn

    Steven Grapperhaus gave an interesting if somewhat mean spirited analogy. I can understand that Greek people would be offended. What surprises me is that all the Greeks replying here are all pointing their fingers to others: Germany, Coca Cola, etc. It's everybody's fault except Greece, no apologies, nothing. It's obvious to any rational person that the Greek economy is a complete disgrace and that nobody is to blame but the Greeks themselves and the bankers they hired to hide their true financial state when they requested access to the euro. Every European is paying the price for this in a very literal way. All our economies are suffering very hard. I understand that to the hard working Greek suffering every day from this, this doesn't mean anything. But apparently no politician was ever chosen that could clean up the corruption, the pensions for dead people, the whole culture of inefficiency, despotism etc. It's always easier to chose comfort. I understand that. And now, the bill has come. It doesn't really matter if Greece tries to stay in the EU or steps out. It will take a decade of hardship to climb up again. The Greeks can lash out at the unfairness of it all, but it's just a little too easy to point to everyone else but yourself. So, man up and take the medicine. At the end of the day, at least all of the cancers in the Greek economies are being eradicated. So, you'll come out better, just not right now.

    May 20, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
  223. Bernd

    Its typical southern mentality to blame others for own failures.

    Nobody in germany wants to pay for you, nobody here wants a euro.
    We were forced to accept this trash-union with this trash currency.
    We have to pay billions and billions every jear, more then everyone else for something nobody here even wants.
    You guys should be happy that germany is under a EU-dictatorship goverment. If the people would rule, we would just leave this crap-union and return to D-Mark

    After reading most of the comments here, i now hate greeks even more then the turks.

    May 21, 2012 at 3:04 am |
  224. Bernd

    Greece cheated to get in the EU,
    So pay back all aid payment from the EU (which we all know is just money from germany)
    How about that?

    Best thing would be if germany leaves the EU. Leaving you guys with your problems, while we keep our own.
    So everyone could do what they do best. You guys could continue to lie, abuse, calling us nazis, complain, beeing corrupt and point with fingers. And we continue to work and producing things that you obviously cant because back then WW2 and so on.... you guys are just horrible persons and we have to pay for you, i hate my goverment.

    May 21, 2012 at 3:27 am |
  225. mschipperheyn

    and what about all the "Germany stole our gold in WWII, the nazi's are back" retoric? In Holland we make jokes about Germans having to give our bikes back. But it's jokes. All of Europe was plundered and destroyed in WWII. Is that really how the majority of the Greeks think? Because it's yet another example of this "it's not our fault thinking". That's the kind of thinking that gives me a clue as to why this all happened in the first place. And it doesn't give a lot of hope that Greece will be able to resolve their woes any time soon. And it sure as hell should give the rest of Europe pause as to if there should be any more lending.

    May 21, 2012 at 12:43 pm |
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